The limits of the Saints

[Michael_Francis]

Attention:

Remain on topic with all posts.
If this thread deviates from it’s topic it will be closed.

 

[EJM]

That is not mocking Catholic teaching.

Catholic apologists insists that praying to the saints is no different than asking another Christian on earth to pray for you.

True or not true?

My Christian friends always ask me if I have any prayer requests for them and I ask others in the Body if they have any prayer requests for me. The term “prayer requests” is not a mocking term.

If this whole concept is alien to you personally, please don’t blame and lash out at me.

My points remain.

…

How do you know who is truly in the ‘Body’

Peace

 

[EJM]

Of course.

That is why if those dead in Christ are indeed praying for us, then they will pray for us no less or no more whether we ask them to or not.

Like you said, they do not have our shortcomings.

I find it hard to believe that Christian in Heaven would not pray for us simply because we did not specifically ask them.

This is an idea that I have been thinking about concerning this topic. I think it is a good, or at least interesting point.

Peace

 

[VociMike]

Or are we to suppose that the Blessed, now that they see God no longer by faith, but by sight, love other Christians, not more, but much less ? That is equivalent to saying that the greater someone’s love of God, the more perfectly selfish he will become.

Working off your excellent reply, I note that many Protestants have told me that all they’ll be doing in heaven is worshipping God, but I think it’s useful to view the matter in a more earthly vein. Imagine two churches:

One is filled with people who worship God day and night. Outside there are people who are hungry, need clothing and shelter and guidance. The poor and the sick and the widows and orphans. But the members of this church are too busy praising and worshipping God, which they view as their highest duty and joy, to help those outside.

The other church is filled with people who worship God, but who also devote time to tending the poor and the sick and the widows and orphans outside. They do not view this as in conflict with worship, but as a concrete expression of the love they also express in their worship. Tending to those outsiders is just another component of their duty and joy in God.

Which sounds more like what we think heaven will be?

 

[Church_Militant]

I am familiar with the canonization process, but at what point does God tell the Church who is definitely in Heaven and how does that message come?

If you’re “familiar with the canonization process” then you should also be familiar with the fact that it is simply a recognition of the holy life lived by the person in question, and not be asking questions like that.

This is all just a bunch of nit picky junk used to try to make Catholics look like they don’t know what they are talking about or to make the Church appear to be in some sort of confusion or error. It comes across as insincere.

Even back to the tombs of martyrs in the catacombs there are “prayer requests” on the tombs, placed there by those who buried them.

Hebrews 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, which tells us that the faithful departed are aware of the races being run by the Church Militant, so apparently it is God’s will that they do so.

No one has to ask a particular saint for intercession, but we do because we know that they want to as part of the body of Christ.

Does one cease to be a member of the Body of Christ simply because they die?

 

[Church_Militant]

This is an idea that I have been thinking about concerning this topic. I think it is a good, or at least interesting point.

Peace

And if you went to Mass you’d have heard the priest say, "With the intercession of Mary and all the saints upon whose constant intercession we rely for help?

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, forgive me if I was uncharitable, but the manner in which you speak to people and the way you consistently hijack threads is unacceptable.

I agree with the responses above that suggest you open your own threads to debate these issues – since once again, we are not attempting to answer the OP’s question.

I rescind my intention never to respond to you posts; I overreacted because I was angry with you. I’ll engage you in debate, but please do it in the right manner. You frequently exhort others to treat you with charity; please endeavor to do the same.

Peace,
Dante

What I have found is that even responding to these posts that are off topic, I am blamed for “hijacking” threads.

I have no intention of “hijacking” any threads.

You have ample opportunity to respond to the OP.

I guess I must take all off topic comments, inquiries, and accusations privately as I am tired of taking the blame for thread closings.

 

[Atemi]

Thank you Lily.

Like I said, I am familiar with the process.

What I was asking is at which point does God tell the Church who is undoubtedly in Heaven and how does that message come.

I do not know if this is off topic or not. I am not quite familiar with the system here on CA, so I don’t know how far on the topic of the saints this thread is allowed to go.

If you are indeed familiar with the canonisation process then you would know that this happens in two ways.

The first is plain use of human reason. A thorough and minute examination of how the person lived and died, whether their life and death are in conformity with the example set us by Christ. This can give us near-certainty, but not complete. There are many many candidates who are rejected at this stage, often on the basis of lack of such evidence.

Secondly is the occurrence of at least two independently investigated and verified miracles that are directly linked to intercession from that candidate for sainthood - usually cures of disease that totally go against the accepted natural course and progression of such diseases. Again there are plenty of cases that have stalled at this stage - either no miracles or only one have occurred.

Both these conditions having been fulfilled, the person is then declared a capital S saint - not of course in the sense that only those people so declared are in heaven, but that it has pleased God to point these particular individuals out to us as models of what we call ‘heroic sanctity’ such that they are fitting rolemodels for us.

Remember that in its 2,000 years there have been roughly 10,000 Saints declared. That’s a whoppingly huge total of 5 per year. And most of these cases take a century or longer to complete. The church is never in a hurry to canonise anyone unworthily.

 

[LilyM]

Thank you Lily.

Like I said, I am familiar with the process.

What I was asking is at which point does God tell the Church who is undoubtedly in Heaven and how does that message come.

I do not know if this is off topic or not. I am not quite familiar with the system here on CA, so I don’t know how far on the topic of the saints this thread is allowed to go.

You’re welcome … although I trust you’ll forgive me for repeating that you don’t seem to be overly familiar with the process, otherwise the answers would be self-evident.

I trust by now you have your answer though. Which would be the point at which God tells the church is the point at which He performs verified miracles through the intercession of the candidate for sainthood.

And that the ‘message’, in other words confirmation that they are indeed in heaven, comes both through these miracles and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit which has been promised to the Church in this regard and doesn’t permit of the canonisation of the unworthy.

 

[Atemi]

You’re welcome … although I trust you’ll forgive me for repeating that you don’t seem to be overly familiar with the process, otherwise the answers would be self-evident.

Self evident that someone is in undoubtedly in Heaven at that exact moment?

No. At least not from the view of a non-Catholic Christian.

I trust by now you have your answer though. Which would be the point at which God tells the church is the point at which He performs verified miracles through the intercession of the candidate for sainthood.

But the Apostolic witness is clear that all sorts of wonders and miracles can come from elsewhere other than from God.

So, no, miracles and wonders would truly not be self evident proof that someone in particular is in Heaven right at that moment.

Thank you, though, for your response.

 

[RNRobert]

But the Apostolic witness is clear that all sorts of wonders and miracles can come from elsewhere other than from God.

So, no, miracles and wonders would truly not be self evident proof that someone in particular is in Heaven right at that moment.

True, but Our Lord was also accused of performing miracles through the power of the devil, so I’m not surprised when those outside the Church attribute it’s miracles to demonic influence (not that I’m saying you said anything like that, but I have heard a number of fundamentalist preachers say as much).

Also, the Church doesn’t look at miracles, it also investigates the life of the person to see how holy a life he lead. That plays a big part, too.

 

[LilyM]

Self evident that someone is in undoubtedly in Heaven at that exact moment?

No. At least not from the view of a non-Catholic Christian.

But the Apostolic witness is clear that all sorts of wonders and miracles can come from elsewhere other than from God.

So, no, miracles and wonders would truly not be self evident proof that someone in particular is in Heaven right at that moment.

Thank you, though, for your response.

I meant that the basis for our belief is self-evident - just as the basis for most Muslim or Buddhist beliefs is self-evident - it’s fairly clear and internally consistent. Not that acceptance need be automatic.

In the case of each canonisation it lies in the combination of three factors:

• reasoned and careful analysis of the life of the candidate
• belief in the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit upon the Church in the matter of declaring saints,
• and yes, belief that God will indicate His chosen role models to us via signs and wonders (again carefully examined and verified) since He wishes us to know, learn from, and honour them.

Sounds like rather the same bases that you have for belief in Christ himself, no?

 

[Nancie_Lew]

On the news today they were saying that the Catholic Church is trying to saint the late Pope John Paul. If he is sainted does that give John Paul some type of extra intercessory prayer power? What"s the advantage of praying to a saint as opposed to a mere John Doe up in heaven?

Why is it so important for Catholics to have saints anyway… the whole Earth is going to blow up and disintegrate someday…so who cares?

 

[RNRobert]

On the news today they were saying that the Catholic Church is trying to saint the late Pope John Paul. If he is sainted does that give John Paul some type of extra intercessory prayer power? What"s the advantage of praying to a saint as opposed to a mere John Doe up in heaven?

Why is it so important for Catholics to have saints anyway… the whole Earth is going to blow up and disintegrate someday…so who cares?

To answer the first part of your question, making Pope JPII a saint doesn’t give him any special intercessory powers. It just declares that he is in heaven. Even if our loved ones are not canonized (the church prays for all souls on Nov 2, All Souls Day), I’m sure they still pray for us and we can ask them to pray for our needs.

As for the second, the Earth will one day be gone, but we will be with God in Heaven (or not, depending on the circumstances ) and we will enjoy eternity with God. The saints are our heavenly family.
From your second question, it appears you don’t have much faith in God (or anything). Not being judgemental, just an observation.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Drifted from Topic and closed.