The list of mortal sins seems too harsh

[Trident_H]

Does depression count as mental affliction?

what about doing it to save some one

what if some one and a guys friend are both held up

Friend one is told he must kill himself or friend 2 dies

would that be a situation where they are damned?

Buddy. If a friend is told to murder another friend or else die himself and goes through with it he’s going to hell for sure. No question. Every day of his life. Every day would be hell to crawl through. Without a break.

What God does with him after he dies is another matter.

I led someone close to my heart to their death by accident. That’s been hell enough for me. So yeah. Doing it in a moment of cowardice? On purpose? That’s a trip you don’t come back from.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Ph0enix]

I didnt say he would need to kill his friend

i said he needs to kill himself for his friend

My prayers for you and your friend’s soul

 

[Trident_H]

I didnt say he would need to kill his friend

i said he needs to kill himself for his friend

Sorry man. I’m always reading what I think I see. What jumps out to me. And stuff like this gets a bit electric. I try to rush through it. I’ll try to be more careful next time.

But yeah. That’s even closer to what happened actually. I mean no one pointed a gun or anything like that. No one forced this that way. Not directly. But I mean that’s still getting close enough to really arrow in. Someone stood taller than I did. Someone tried to fix things for me. And died doing it for me. So I’m telling you this truly. It kills the survivor too.

So noble deeds are great and all. But the self-sacrificing kind makes the survivor feel like his soul’s on fire.

But the one killing himself in the other guy’s place? That one goes straight to heaven. Straight. No question.

Sorry for spinning this in a circle. I didn’t mean to do that.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Ph0enix]

No worries about circling, some times it gets more info and a better answer

 

[Trident_H]

No worries about circling, some times it gets more info and a better answer

Thanks for understanding.

Peace Ph0enix.

-Trident

 

[Ph0enix]

No problem man!

• peace!

 

[BornInMarch]

I think this very issue is one reason that there is such a divide between very conservative Catholics and mainstream Catholics. No amount of lecturing by conservatives is going to make me, for one second, believe that the sins of masturbation and the sin of contraception usage is equal to that of murder or rape. Just from conversations with other Catholics, I know I’m not alone.

I understand how you feel: too many Catholics assume that getting into Hell is easy or that one slip up can invalidate a lifetime of good deeds. Yet both the bible and common sense suggest that a truly merciful God made things so that you have to go out of your way to get condemned to Hell.

Contraception is only equal to murder if it induces abortion: if it just induces temporary infertility then I don’t think you’d suffer the same punishment as someone who smothered their child with a pillow.

Masturbation is bad, but the only person you’re really hurting is yourself. An earlier poster used stealing as an analogy: stealing a pencil is going to receive the same punishment as bad as robbing a bank.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I think this very issue is one reason that there is such a divide between very conservative Catholics and mainstream Catholics. No amount of lecturing by conservatives is going to make me, for one second, believe that the sins of masturbation and the sin of contraception usage is equal to that of murder or rape. Just from conversations with other Catholics, I know I’m not alone.

The sins of masturbation & contraception are not equal in gravity to murder, although they are all mortal sins. Some mortal sins are worse than others, but that doesn’t mean the less grave ones don’t condemn one to Hell just because they appear “less evil” when compared to some heinous transgression. I know I am not alone in my beliefs either.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Does depression count as mental affliction?

what about doing it to save some one

what if some one and a guys friend are both held up

Friend one is told he must kill himself or friend 2 dies

would that be a situation where they are damned?

Yes, depression would count as a mental affliction.

As far as I know, suicide would not be justified in that case, but I think someone else would be better at discerning the morality of that case.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…
We are not called to worry obsessively.

How are we supposed to live, then? Live with joy.

.

Well, sort of we are:

Phillipians 2:12

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, ]**work out your salvation with fear and trembling **for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.…

I guess ‘fear and trembling’ is somewhere just below ‘worry obsessively’. ?

 

[multitude]

That list may have looked harsh to me once upon a time. Don’t think they are anymore. It’s all about striving to be among the few, not about imitating everybody else and their ways. Sometimes there really are other choices you can make, other than those listed.

In this case the atheists have nothing to fear. They do not “seek” hell, either. So it would be unjust to damn them with eternal torture for not believing something for which there is absolutely no evidence. Not to have eternal life and eternal torture would be a just solution. Sounds good to me.

If I do not seek employment, I don’t get employment. IOW, I get unemployment. I never sought unemployment either, however, I would get unemployment, by not seeking employment.

 

[Trident_H]

If I do not seek employment, I don’t get employment. IOW, I get unemployment. I never sought unemployment either, however, I would get unemployment, by not seeking employment.

Nice analogy.

 

[Scottgun]

So it would be unjust to damn them with eternal torture for not believing something for which there is absolutely no evidence

Luke 16:19-31Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

If I do not seek employment, I don’t get employment. IOW, I get unemployment. I never sought unemployment either, however, I would get unemployment, by not seeking employment.

You are wrong. You must apply for unemployment benefits, if you wish to receive them. It is not automatic. And you need to show diligence in seeking employment and provide proof of this diligence every week, otherwise your benefits will stop… Are you aware of this fact?

Of course to get paid for not being employed is not exactly a parallel for eternal torture. So, this analogy is incorrect in every way. Better try again.

The original argument was that “if you do not ask to be admitted into heaven, then you should not expect to get there”. By the same token “if one does not ask to be tortured eternally, then one should not be exposed to hell”. Elementary, my dear Watson. But many people are rather weak in logic, don’t you agree?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Is this supposed to be some “evidence”?

I assure you, if Jesus would come down in his glory and keep of resurrecting the dead, it would be quite a strong evidence for your beliefs. He could get unto national television and list the names of all the people (with addresses and all) who WILL be resurrected next week, and such an event would be an excellent evidence for the claims of Christianity.

Of course it will not happen. I bet a million dollars that it will NOT happen. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? I thought so.

 

[multitude]

You are wrong. You must apply for unemployment benefits, if you wish to receive them. It is not automatic. And you need to show diligence in seeking employment and provide proof of this diligence every week, otherwise your benefits will stop… Are you aware of this fact?

Of course to get paid for not being employed is not exactly a parallel for eternal torture. So, this analogy is incorrect in every way. Better try again.

The original argument was that “if you do not ask to be admitted into heaven, then you should not expect to get there”. By the same token “if one does not ask to be tortured eternally, then one should not be exposed to hell”. Elementary, my dear Watson. But many people are rather weak in logic, don’t you agree?

I don’t think you understood my analogy. The point was to merely point out your non sequitor. The point was that just because you don’t ask to be tortured, doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t be.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I don’t think you understood my analogy. The point was to merely point out your non sequitor.

I understood it just fine. I simply pointed out that if there is a CONSISTENT behavior, then one must ASK for what one receives.

The point was that just because you don’t ask to be tortured, doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t be.

Undoubtedly so, especially if one falls into the hand of a sadistic psychopath. If that is how you wish to describe God, that is perfectly fine by me. If you would read the bible, especially the OT with an unbiased eye, then that is exactly how God is described.

 

[multitude]

Fair enough. Well, technically I don’t really believe God is a sadistic psychopath, rather I think it’s someone else (read: Satan) who does the torturing. Anyways, if God is really who He is supposed to be, the real Alpha and the Omega, and one wishes not to worship Him as He is and as He deserves, then whatever punishment one receives could very well be just.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Fair enough. Well, technically I don’t really believe God is a sadistic psychopath, rather I think it’s someone else (read: Satan) who does the torturing.

With God’s explicit or implicit approval.

Anyways, if God is really who He is supposed to be, the real Alpha and the Omega, and one wishes not to worship Him as He is and as He deserves, then whatever punishment one receives could very well be just.

What is “just” about punishing someone who does not have FULL information to make INFORMED decision?

 

[multitude]

It’s a valid hypothetical whether you believe or not. We don’t always have full information about everything and we still make choices we either love or regret.