The Long Night Of Apostasy

[Alma147]

It isn’t out of copyright, it has been maintained by the Mormon church’s book publisher, Deseret Book, which has it available as hardbound, paperback, soft cover, leather-bound, book on CD, ebook and a Spanish edition.

I think it is out of copyright --75 years would take it to 1990. The 1915 edition is available on google books for free at:

books.google.com/books?id=DqU_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+the+christ+talmage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jMPXT-mtMeaM2gXR9ZClDw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jesus%20the%20christ%20talmage&f=false

However, a more up to date treatment of the LDS premise of the apostasy can be found here:

mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=108&id=1232

Alma

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think it is out of copyright --75 years would take it to 1990. The 1915 edition is available on google books for free at:

books.google.com/books?id=DqU_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+the+christ+talmage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jMPXT-mtMeaM2gXR9ZClDw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jesus%20the%20christ%20talmage&f=false

However, a more up to date treatment of the LDS premise of the apostasy can be found here:

mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=108&id=1232

Alma

Could be. I worked in the publishing industry for years, in SLC. A copyright can be renewed, and DB is pretty diligent at renewing them. Could be they kept a later edition under copyright, at any rate, the ebook at DB is only .99.

Your new link from BYU isn’t any better than Talmage. Both are assertions, and treat Sacred Scripture with a heavy dose of sophistry.

 

[ErinGoBragh]

I think it is out of copyright --75 years would take it to 1990. The 1915 edition is available on google books for free at:

books.google.com/books?id=DqU_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=jesus+the+christ+talmage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jMPXT-mtMeaM2gXR9ZClDw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jesus%20the%20christ%20talmage&f=false

However, a more up to date treatment of the LDS premise of the apostasy can be found here:

mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=108&id=1232

Alma

alot of your souces in the BYU link use either the book of mormon/Joseph Smith translations/current church theology. Although the author does pose an interesting remark. “If there had not been an apostasy, there would be no need for a restoration”. I just feel like the LDS church is so hell bent on pointing out the faults of man instead of rejoicing in the tender mercies of the Lord in providing us with a savior and a church to worship.

 

[Stephen168]

To me, this is a very strong and influential portion for why mormons are against Catholics.

It is the other way around. Anti-Catholicism is the foundation of Mormonism. Talmage isn’t the cause of it, he is a representation of it.

Talmage makes some very stern accusations that the Roman Catholic Church has defiled pretty much everything sacred. But Talmage doesn’t use scripture to back up his claims but rather uses another lds book as its source.

Talmage believes the Catholic Church is the great abominable Church and he is preaching to the choir. Mormons don’t question him or look for the facts, they believe his story.

Historically, Protestant Churches changed the Christian understanding of the Eucharist as told to us by Christ; and Mormonism is a product of Protestantism. This is just one example of Talmage being wrong.

My cousin gave me this book in hopes that this particular chapter would show me the error of my ways and the errors of Christ’s Church.

I think is a chance for you to learn the many false teachings of Mormonism and how they are poor imitation of the Catholic Church.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Okay, well, it’s out of copyright so I’m a little surprised. Always something new to learn.

But then, I think hooplah in 1915 is still hooplah today.

Maybe you could pick one single factoid at a time to discuss. Otherwise it’s fairly unwieldy.

Well it may be out of copyright but it’s not out of print, there was an edition published in March of this year. It is obviously well received by LDS as there are dozens of reviews calling it a “must read” and “a classic”. Only one poster mentions the last chapter, s/he feels it is a good book for all Christians excepting the first few chapters and the last. It is recommended that these chapters be skipped not because of the hate in them but because they reference LDS scripture. S/he finds nothing wrong with the hateful vitriol and anti-Catholicism found in the last chapter. So while Talmage’s book may not be the cause of anti-Catholicism in LDS thought, it is most certainly an ongoing contributor to the anti-Catholicism present in it now. And sadly from the availability of the book and the breathless awe in which it is received it will continue to foster this among LDS members.

On another note it srikes me that LDS members have mistaken Mr. Talmage’s training, and believe he is an historian, or that what ever a member of the 12 says must be the truth. I’ve seen members of the LDS church post here and many others on boards that vary in who they serve with the same understanding of history. Their understanding is not a “The Catholic Church corrupted the ordinances” but a “The Catholic church is responsible for every single short coming of every society and country through out history. Just look at the Dark Ages, the Catholics did that”.
They all hold to the same “meme”. Even former members who questioned what the LDS church taught about it’s own history (to the point of leaving) still accept the ideas and understanding presented by Talmage.

This leads me to wonder about another of Talmage’s books The Great Apstasy has anyone read it? And if so does one find the same level of bile and hate as found in chapter 40 of Jesus The Christ

 

[Jack_Mormon]

James E. Talmage also wrote a book called the Great Apostasy. It is a bunch of hooplah.

To summarize:
Joseph Smith made up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to Christianity.
Joseph Smith is right
Therefore the Catholic Church is wrong.

Mormon fantasy

No, James E. Talmage did not say that “Joseph Smith made up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to Christianity.” :hypno:

iggy

 

[George_Stegmeir]

My only question for all of you is: "Why are you bothering with such clap-trap?
Your time would be better spent brushing up on the catachism and not “preaching to the choir” on line about abject drivel.
Ah, the wonders of pseudo-intellectual threads!

 

[Jack_Mormon]

“The Great Apostasy” is hopelessly out of date in its scholarship. Furthermore, what anti-mormons won’t tell you is that while Talmages’ first edition identified the Catholic Church as the source of apostasy, that the church forced him to remove those statements in subsequent editions.

Stephen Robinson’s article in the LDS church magazine, the Ensign shows a much more updated view. If anyone honestly wants to know what LDS scripture and scholarship says about the apostasy, I strongly recommend this article.

The Greek word apostasia (apostasy, falling away) means rebellion or revolution. It conveys the sense of an internal takeover by factions hostile to the intentions of the previous leaders. I personally prefer the translation mutiny, as it suggests that unauthorized members commandeer a ship and take it where the ship is not supposed to go. Since early Christians often thought of the church as a ship, I think mutiny conveys the sense of what Paul and others meant by the term apostasia. (See 2 Thes. 2:3.)

Originally, the term ekklesia, formed from two words meaning call and out, referred to those citizens whom heralds called out or summoned to public meetings. Thus, it was an ideal word to represent the body of individuals whom God “calls out” of the world through the Holy Ghost. The civil dimension of the word appears in Acts 19:32, where assembly in the KJV is a translation of the Greek ekklesia. We must, however, remember that we don’t know the original word on the gold plates that Joseph Smith translated as church. Whatever it was, the Prophet chose to translate it as church instead of as assembly.

When we put all this together, we find that the term great and abominable church means an immense assembly or association of people bound together by their loyalty to that which God hates. Most likely, this “church” is involved specifically in sexual immorality, idolatry (that is, false worship), or both. While the book of Revelation does not use the exact phrase “great and abominable church,” both John and Nephi use a number of similar phrases to describe it. They call it the “Mother of Harlots, and Abominations,” “mother of abominations,” and “the whore that sitteth upon many waters.” (Rev. 17:1, 5; 1 Ne. 14:10–11.)
The major characteristics of the great and abominable church described in 1 Nephi may be listed as follows:

1.    It persecutes, tortures, and slays the Saints of God. (See 1 Ne. 13:5.)
2.    It seeks wealth and luxury. (See 1 Ne. 13:7–8.)
3.    It is characterized by sexual immorality. (See 1 Ne. 13:7.)
4.    It has excised plain and precious things from the scriptures. (See 1 Ne. 13:26–29.)
5.    It has dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. (See 1 Ne. 14:11.)

6.    Its fate is to be consumed by a world war, when the nations it incites against the Saints war among themselves until the great and abominable church itself is destroyed. (See 1 Ne. 22:13–14.)

Clearly that could not be the Catholic Church, because:

By the time of Constantine, the Apostles had been dead for centuries. Furthermore, the early Orthodox church can hardly be accused of immorality. It had, in fact, gone to the extremes of asceticism. In some areas of the world Orthodoxy replaced an earlier, already corrupt form of Christianity. And during much of the period, members of the Orthodox Church were not in a position to persecute anyone, as they were being thrown to the lions themselves. The Catholic church of the fourth century was the result of the Apostasy—its end product—not the cause. To find the real culprits, we need to look at a much earlier period in church history than the fourth century after Christ. Satan had his ministers in the world long before then, and we must remember that Babylon was already there to oppose Zion in the days of Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and Herod.

Clearly, we aren’t going to come to agreement here. But LDS beliefs are not quite as anathemical to yours as some here would have you believe.

 

[Stephen168]

No, James E. Talmage did not say that “Joseph Smith made up a bunch of stuff that is contrary to Christianity.” :hypno:

iggy

I never sound he did.

 

[Jack_Mormon]

I never sound he did.

My pardon. It appears that you and I have a different understanding of the meaning of the word “summary.”

 

[Jack_Mormon]

Your new link from BYU isn’t any better than Talmage. Both are assertions, and treat Sacred Scripture with a heavy dose of sophistry.

Rebecca, any time you want to back up those heavy handed labels with specifics, analyzing specific quotes from the article, I’d love to hear what you have to say. But on their own those labels aren’t very persuasive.

 

[Jack_Mormon]

In the military we were told to obey our last order first; I think it is similar in Mormonism. Except in Mormonism you just forget the earlier order completely.

Well no. But a countermanded Order is no longer an Order. That’s why we aren’t still building Arks.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Did you find Archaeological evidence Horses existed in North America 4-6-AD?

So what year did the Apostasy start and how?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, any time you want to back up those heavy handed labels with specifics, analyzing specific quotes from the article, I’d love to hear what you have to say. But on their own those labels aren’t very persuasive.

Lack of interest, and many years of those sort of discussion…to what point. Mormons can’t hear. I’m also back to thinking Mormons have less intelligence than most people, but, that is my lack of patience and charity, I’m sure. With that, I’m not able to converse then, at this time, because I’m just thinking everything I read from Mormons lacks intelligence and is rooted in a deep deception and dishonesty. Oh, and patronizing arrogance too.

SO, there are SEVERAL threads on this forum that have discussed Talmage and Mormonism’s conspiracy theories of a “great apostasy”. You can do a search and read them.

 

[TexanKnight]

Well no. But a countermanded Order is no longer an Order. That’s why we aren’t still building Arks.

Horrible analogy. the order to build an ark was directed to ONE person. THAT is the reason we aren’t still building arks.

 

[TexanKnight]

Rebecca, any time you want to back up those heavy handed labels with specifics, analyzing specific quotes from the article, I’d love to hear what you have to say. But on their own those labels aren’t very persuasive.

which labels are those?

 

[Jack_Mormon]

Did you find Archaeological evidence Horses existed in North America 4-6-AD?

No, I wasn’t looking. Knights ride horses, but horses have AFAIK nothing to do with “the long night of apostasy.” Please explain how that’s relevant. But please don’t accuse me of dodging because I did answer the question, no; I didn’t find such evidence, Gary.

So what year did the Apostasy start and how?

I reckon it started some time before the apostles started writing about it in the New Testament. About individual church leaders leading their flocks astray and teaching false doctrines. Do you know precisely what year they wrote their epistles?

Even Acts describes some magician who joined the church and offered to pay an apostle for the power to lay on hands, no? The tendency to apostatize has always been there. It’s still around in the latter-days. The horrid folk that newsies mistakenly call “Mormon Fundamentalists” are apostates from the LDS church.

The current prevailing LDS view is that the Catholic church was formed by Christians who honestly sought to piece together the church as Christ had intended. We owe your founders a debt of gratitude for assembling the New Testament. We see them as great reformers, not as apostates, but we believe that they lacked the priesthood authority, even though they may not have realized that it was absent.

I’m not trying to persuade you to my views, but providing honest questions about what I believe.