The Lord *BE/*IS with you

[ccmcmg]

Which is the correct term, and why would a priest use the other? This morning at Mass, the priest always said “The Lord *is *with you” instead of BE (each and every time). I’m not complaining; just surprised and curious.

 

[ProVobis]

Which is the correct term, and why would a priest use the other? This morning at Mass, the priest always said “The Lord *is *with you” instead of BE (each and every time). I’m not complaining; just surprised and curious.

The Latin (“Dominus vobiscum”) does not have a verb. Neither does the Polish (“Pan z wami”) but it’s understood as “The Lord IS with you.” The Hail Mary is “the Lord IS with you.” The required text in English Mass, unfortunately, is “the Lord be with you.” I say unfortunate because theologically is it more correct to say that the Lord is already with us IMO. (“May the PEACE of the Lord be with you” is an entirely different thing.)

I too have heard priests use “The Lord is with you.”

 

[Razanir]

So as much as people try denying it, English actually does conjugate our verbs. Just not to the extent of Romance languages (or even many/most Germanic languages). And one oft-hated part of foreign languages, the subjunctive, is in English as well. It’s why you can say “I were…” and still be correct. (Okay, so it’d actually be “Were I” or “If I were”) More specifically, that’s the imperfect subjunctive. (It’s the same conjugation as “Laudarem” for “Laudo, laudare”)

Saying, however, “The Lord be with you” is actually the present subjunctive (“laudem”), which is used periphrasitically as a third person imperative. Put a little less verbosely, the priest is saying “[May] the Lord be with you”, in a sense of invoking the Lord to be with this person.

Contrast with “The Lord is with you”, which is just lame old, plain old, indicative simple present. (“laudo”, or, since I can actually conjugate “esse” in the active indicative, “Dominus vobiscum [est]”)

So, in short, in the Mass, “Dominus vobiscum” is read in the subjunctive, as a sort of blessing. Even if, as ProVobis pointed out, the Lord is technically already with us. (Although I counter with the fact that the Holy Spirit is already with us prior to Confirmation, so redundancy in blessings is nothing new) Contrasting with the Hail Mary where it is read indicatively, as simply saying the Lord is with Mary.

 

[ProVobis]

(Although I counter with the fact that the Holy Spirit is already with us prior to Confirmation, so redundancy in blessings is nothing new)

I heard when they were going through the first round of translations in the 60’s, they actually posited this (dynamic) translation: “May the spirit of the Lord be with you/And also with you,” which probably would have been more to the point but the Anglicans I believe didn’t want the first part changed so we ended up with the “Lord be with you/And also with you.” The rest is history.

 

[Gorgias]

The Latin (“Dominus vobiscum”) does not have a verb. Neither does the Polish (“Pan z wami”) but it’s understood as “The Lord IS with you.”

Except that, in Latin, the sentence “(May) the Lord be with you” is also rendered as 'Dominus vobiscum".

The required text in English Mass, unfortunately, is “the Lord be with you.”

The issue here, however, isn’t whether we opine that the correct translation ‘should’ be “The Lord is with you” – the issue is that the English translation is “The Lord be with you.” No individual (save the Pope ) has the authority to change the text of the prayers of the Mass.

So, whether or not we think the Church has made a mistake with its translation, priests are nevertheless bound to pray the Mass as laid out in the Missal.

I say unfortunate because theologically is it more correct to say that the Lord is already with us IMO. (“May the PEACE of the Lord be with you” is an entirely different thing.)

I too have heard priests use “The Lord is with you.”

Me too… and it makes me cringe.

 

[svid2]

Pax Christi!

Thank God none of this is on the test.

(May) God bless (y’all).

 

[ccmcmg]

Perhaps part of it is my own ‘translation’ of the phrase and the intent.

The Lord **be **with you. (To me, that is intended as a blessing.)

The Lord **is **with you. (To me, that’s a statement/reminder.)

 

[ProVobis]

Some origins according to Wiki

II Chronicles recounts that Azariah, filled with the spirit of God, said, “Audite me, Asa et omnis Iuda et Beniamin! Dominus vobiscum, quia fuistis cum eo. Si quaesieritis eum, invenietur a vobis; si autem dereliqueritis eum, derelinquet vos.” (“Hear me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin! The LORD is with you when you are with him, and if you seek him he will be present to you; but if you abandon him, he will abandon you.”)[6]

The phrase additionally appears in Numbers 14:42: “Nolite ascendere: non enim est Dominus vobiscum: ne corruatis coram inimicis vestris.”[7] (Hebrew Ayn adonai b’qirb’chem) The expression in Hebrew means to be successful.

biblehub.com/numbers/14-42.htm

But in 1 Sam 17:37 the subjunctive is supplied.

37 Et ait David: Dominus qui eripuit me de manu leonis, et de manu ursi, ipse me liberabit de manu Philisthæi hujus. Dixit autem Saul ad David: Vade, et Dominus tecum sit.

new.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Samuel%2017:37

That said, maybe we’re all reading too much into it. Maybe it just suffices that “Dominus vobiscum” is simply a greeting. Incidentally in the EF the priest turns to the congregation when he says this; some of the few times when he faces the congregation and meant to be heard. It’s also to denote that he’s moving on to the next prayer, for the lack of a better term.

.

 

[zab]

It makes more sense to me for the priest to extend the greeting to the people with “The Lord be with you” which is the same as (May the Lord be with you!).

 

[zab]

Perhaps part of it is my own ‘translation’ of the phrase and the intent.

The Lord **be **with you. (To me, that is intended as a blessing.)

The Lord **is **with you. (To me, that’s a statement/reminder.)

I didn’t see your comment before I posted, but this was my thought about it too.

 

[larsont7]

I guess that’s one of the concerns of the Mass being in the vernacular. Priests can and do change the words, which can cause confusion among the faithful. Dominus vobiscum has likely been around since the time of the apostles, but at minimum since the Council of Braga in AD 563, and is likely never to change.

But if we’re going to use the English and decide between “be with you” and “is with you”, I say to err on the side of Obi Wan Kenobi…always. (slight Alec Guinness derail - check out his conversion to Catholicism when you get a chance…very cool)

 

[ProVobis]

I guess that’s one of the concerns of the Mass being in the vernacular.

Yes, that’s one of them. It’s like the English greeting, “Welcome,” for example. We can translate it to “Bene venite” in Latin but non-English Latinists would be totally confused. Some things you just can’t translate and preserve the nuance. But even if one could, they will lose meaning eventually. My first language was Polish and I have done some translating. But then even in the best translations, the understanding I have in the Polish is different than the understanding I have in the English of the very same thing. Might even be comical in one language and dramatic in the other. It’s just that way. This really should not be that surprising though to even English-only speakers. After all we have tons of synonyms, like assume and presume, which, according to the dictionary are interchangeable, but there are subtle differences in the words, once these words are analyzed.

 

[zab]

I guess that’s one of the concerns of the Mass being in the vernacular. Priests can and do change the words, which can cause confusion among the faithful. Dominus vobiscum has likely been around since the time of the apostles, but at minimum since the Council of Braga in AD 563, and is likely never to change.

But if we’re going to use the English and decide between “be with you” and “is with you”, I say to err on the side of Obi Wan Kenobi…always. (slight Alec Guinness derail - check out his conversion to Catholicism when you get a chance…very cool)

Be it is! (As Obi Wan Kenobi would say, "The force be with you!). I checked out the Alec Guiness conversion to Catholicism story as you suggested. Great story on the Catholic Nerd BlogSpot: thecatholicnerd.blogspot.com/2013/01/famous-catholic-friday-sir-alec-guinness.html