The Lord Be With You...And With Thy Spirit

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Can anyone here please explain having unequivocal fore-knowledge as to why many Catholic Churches in the United States and Canada particularly parishes where vanacular English is spoken, as to why the prayer invocation (“The Lord Be With You…And With Thy Spirit”)
got vanquished during the course of Vatican II in favor of (“The Lord Be With You…And Also With You”).

And With Thy Spirit verses And Also With You; do not have the same meaning.

With a new Canadian Sacramentary; a return to the former response from the priest invocation (“The Lord Be With You”) used several times during Mass is being strongly considered. Personally I have always favored the response (“And With Thy Spirit”) as being a more prayerfully edifying response over the flimsy (“And Also With You”)

In the French and Italian masses the term (“And Also With You”) have never been used.
And yes I write and speak French and English and can read quite a bit of Italian from setting up Lectionary’s and Sacramentary’s for Italian Masses while a sacrastan
 
Also, Spanish Masses have the “and with thy spirit”… As far as why it got changed… I will leave that to others to explain, and I have no idea.

I do agree, though, that “And also with you” sounds very… informal and almost like “hey, with you too, buddy!”
 
Google this and you will have your answer. All English language versions will revert to “And with your spirit” in the new translations that are currently being hammered out, as per instructions of the Holy See.
 
centurionguard said:
With a new Canadian Sacramentary; a return to the former response from the priest invocation (“The Lord Be With You”) used several times during Mass is being strongly considered.
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I am not sure who is “considering” this but they are a bit late to the party. The various Bishops conferences already voted; the ICEL already submitted the new translation to the Vatican and it was already approved for all English speaking countries. We will be seeing it in the Sacramentaries and the Missals soon. The new translation does away with “and also with you”.
 
Chatter163 said:
Google this and you will have your answer. All English language versions will revert to “And with your spirit” in the new translations that are currently being hammered out, as per instructions of the Holy See.
Click to expand...
I think what the OP is asking is why it was changed to “And also with you” in the first place. OP, please correct me if I’m wrong!
 
datingtrappists said:
I think what the OP is asking is why it was changed to “And also with you” in the first place. OP, please correct me if I’m wrong!
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datingtrappists; you are correct.

As to why (“And also with you”) got changed in the first place ?
I’ll take a shot in the dark on this one and lay square blame on the I.C.E.L. and it’s ongoing
liberal translations on the Novus Ordo English Liturgy without permission from the Holy See from the very beginning. The Magisterium of the Church has always been slaming heavy criticism on the I.C.E.L. for decades.

The bigger question is WHY ? has it taken the Magisterium this long in so many decades questioning and getting much more strict with the I.C.E.L. liturgical translations, and getting tough with liberal cardinals, bishops, and priests to come up with a better liturgical translation since the dawn of Vatican II and the late Archbishop Annibale Bugnini’s original fouled up and poorly translated Novus Ordo ?
 
centurionguard said:
Can anyone here please explain having unequivocal fore-knowledge as to why many Catholic Churches in the United States and Canada particularly parishes where vanacular English is spoken, as to why the prayer invocation (“The Lord Be With You…And With Thy Spirit”)
got vanquished during the course of Vatican II in favor of (“The Lord Be With You…And Also With You”).
Click to expand...
Because we’ve endured forty years of liturgical chaos after the “spirit of Vatican II” got hijacked by the Age of Aquarius. We are currently in rebuilding mode.
 
SMHW said:
Check out this thread for some more info on the subject:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5674247#post5674247
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Thank you for submitting this interesting thread. Quite a turn of events from a historical Church prospective up to present day considering an OP decided to make reference to this subject three years ago. When you consider that numerous languages originally stemed originally from the Latin languages, namely French, Catalan, Italian, Spanish, Romanian, Portuguese, and English; how is it liturgical translation dialects got so misconstrued from Latin into the vanacular of these languages is anyones guess.
 
Here’s an interresting piece of information: I am looking at my copy of The Roman Ritual, copyright 1964 (yep, 1964), translated by Fr Phillip T Weller, STD. As I look at the various blessings most of them begin with the typical opening words:

P: The Lord be with you.
All: May He also be with you.

On the other hand, when I look at the Collectio Rituum in English (aka English Ritual) also copyright 1964:

V. The Lord be with you.

R. And with your spirit.

Collectio Rituum 1954:

V. The Lord be with you.

R. And with your spirit.

I’m no fan of ICEL and I do know that ICEL used the words “and also with you” as a way of emphasizing the idea (which many dispute, myself among them) that “The Lord be with you” is merely a greeting and has no liturgical significance; in other words, to make the point that this is not a blessing but merely a causual greeting. I know this because I had many a conversation with one of the original ICEL translators of the *Novus Ordo *Mass and he shared that tidbit of information with me–although I can’t document it.
Perhaps this is why ICEL translated the rubric:

Diende sacerdos, manus extendens, populum salutat, dicens:

as

Then the priest, facing the people, extends his hands and greets all present with one of the following greetings:

Note that the sentence is redundant: greets all with one of the following greetings. Why? To emphasize the word “greeting”? Also, why the addition of “facing the people”? That’s not in the Latin. Again, to emphasize the idea of greeting?

But back to where I started. Fr. Weller’s 1964 translation of the *Roman Ritual *is a well-regarded one, and for 2 decades it was the standard text for sacramentals and other blessings in the English-speaking world until the new Book of Blessings was approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1984. Fr Weller translates “Et cum spiritu tuo” as “May He also be with you.” Fr. Weller’s is a translation of the 1952 ritual. So too is the English Ritual (© 1964), although it does not indicate who actually did the translation.

What I am trying to say here is that yes, ICEL was inaccurate in using the words “and also with you” and those words need to be corrected. Personally I do believe that their motivation went beyond translating and included expressing the idea that these words are merely a greeting as such and nothing more. However, we also have to temper that by keeping in mind that ICEL is not entirely to blame here. I doubt anyone would say that Fr Weller had any motivation beyond providing an accurate translation, and yet he translates the text as “May He also be with you.”

Fr Weller’s complete 1964 translation is available here sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/

For examples of the text “May He also be with you” see this link
sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/49-blessings-of-persons.html
 
In indonesia, recently there’s been changes also from “And also with You” to “And with Thy Spirit”.

But of course, some of the local priests complaining why the Holy See is lenient in English and not in Indonesian language.
centurionguard said:
Can anyone here please explain having unequivocal fore-knowledge as to why many Catholic Churches in the United States and Canada particularly parishes where vanacular English is spoken, as to why the prayer invocation (“The Lord Be With You…And With Thy Spirit”)
got vanquished during the course of Vatican II in favor of (“The Lord Be With You…And Also With You”).

And With Thy Spirit verses And Also With You; do not have the same meaning.

With a new Canadian Sacramentary; a return to the former response from the priest invocation (“The Lord Be With You”) used several times during Mass is being strongly considered. Personally I have always favored the response (“And With Thy Spirit”) as being a more prayerfully edifying response over the flimsy (“And Also With You”)

In the French and Italian masses the term (“And Also With You”) have never been used.
And yes I write and speak French and English and can read quite a bit of Italian from setting up Lectionary’s and Sacramentary’s for Italian Masses while a sacrastan
Click to expand...
 
FYI, it is about to go back to “and with your spirit” in the new book
 
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