The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

I am still trying to reconcile the “No Salvation Outside the Church” as strictly interpreted in the past with recent interpretations as the one about by Pope Francis in the light of the teaching that doctrine cannot change, only develop. Would you consider the above a development of:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may,** no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”**

JMJ
 
ConstantineTG said:
Redemption and salvation are two different things.
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I keep reading this, and if I ever was actually taught what the difference is or what this statement means, I cannot, for the life of me, remember. May I please be informed?
 
Back2Basics said:
I keep reading this, and if I ever was actually taught what the difference is or what this statement means, I cannot, for the life of me, remember. May I please be informed?
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It is in the link I shared. I shared that even though it is an Orthodox priest who wrote it because he explains it much better than I can. And he defends the Pope, so it is something that people on this sub-forum wouldn’t be against 😉

Edit:
You know what, he did lay it out a bit plainly. I’ll come up with an bit of an explanation. Give me a moment here.
 
Salvation vs. Redemption

Man has fallen to sin because of Adam and Eve. Due to the aftereffects of the Fall, man was beyond redemption. Our soul was incapable of being saved. Christ, by becoming man, who lived and died like all men, has redeemed us because He shared in our humanity so that we may share in his divinity. Now we are capable of receiving His grace and living with Him in heaven for all of eternity.

So redemption, as the blog post noted, is something that Christ did for all. When He died on the cross, He died for all. He died for Mary as much as he died for Hitler. But this was the redemption of man, as a whole. He redeemed our humanity, we became those who cannot be saved, to those who can be saved.

Now being saved is another matter. And that is salvation. Because we are redeemed, we can now be saved. But that now depends on us. Do we accept God’s love and grace? Do we live according to Christ’s commandments? Do we put our whole being into God’s hands?

Being redeemed doesn’t get you into heaven, being saved does. But you cannot be saved if you are not redeemed. So that is the first step and Christ did that for all. Now is the second step and it requires our cooperation.
 
Thanks for posting that Constantine. Too bad most people in the world won’t read it and will continue to think the Pope meant all are saved.
 
Thank you so much… I probably found something like that in my Catechism, even, at some point. It has, however, been awhile since I’ve read it… sadly. Need to get back on that.
 
Back2Basics said:
Thank you so much… I probably found something like that in my Catechism, even, at some point. It has, however, been awhile since I’ve read it… sadly. Need to get back on that.
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Although I can’t give you paragraphs in the Catechism, I’m pretty sure Constantine’s comments are in line with Catholic doctrine as well as Orthodox.
 
Lucky7 said:
Although I can’t give you paragraphs in the Catechism, I’m pretty sure Constantine’s comments are in line with Catholic doctrine as well as Orthodox.
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Its one of the basic beliefs of Ancient Christianity so both sides are in line with this.
 
Here is how I was taught about this back in the “dark ages.”

Our Lord, by His passion and death, paid the ransom for our sins to open for us the gates of heaven. That is why He “descended into hell” (which was really the limbo of the dead) after He died - to visit with all of the just souls who were there since the beginning of time. They couldn’t go to heaven until His death on the cross (actually until His ascension). So. Our Lord redeemed everyone by His death on the cross and opened for us the gates of heaven.

As for our salvation, that is up to us. St. Augustine has a famous saying, “He who created you without your cooperation cannot save you without your cooperation.”
 
Pope Francis has merely restated traditional Catholic teaching. The Catholic Catechism states that anyone who lives a good life, according to his/her conscience can be saved. To say only Catholics can be saved,or only Christians can be saved,i so deny what Jesus died for.God is just,and does not have favourites, To say,"You are a Catholic: welcome to heaven,. You are not a Catholic, You cannot enter heaven is to go against God’s justice
 
Lormar said:
Here is how I was taught about this back in the “dark ages.”

Our Lord, by His passion and death, paid the ransom for our sins to open for us the gates of heaven. That is why He “descended into hell” (which was really the limbo of the dead) after He died - to visit with all of the just souls who were there since the beginning of time. They couldn’t go to heaven until His death on the cross (actually until His ascension). So. Our Lord redeemed everyone by His death on the cross and opened for us the gates of heaven.

As for our salvation, that is up to us. St. Augustine has a famous saying, “He who created you without your cooperation cannot save you without your cooperation.”
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Definitely. People miss the differentiation of redemption vs. salvation and thought that the Pope was talking about universalism, which is a heresy.

I know Pope Benedict got into a lot of this problems too, being a master Theologian he often used terms that are technical and often misinterpreted by the masses. But anyone who knows their theology knows that Pope Francis isn’t preaching heresy or changing Catholic doctrine, he has taught something the Church has taught since the beginning. People just assume it is something else, it is not his fault.
 
maklavan said:
Pope Francis has merely restated traditional Catholic teaching. The Catholic Catechism states that anyone who lives a good life, according to his/her conscience can be saved. To say only Catholics can be saved,or only Christians can be saved,i so deny what Jesus died for.God is just,and does not have favourites, To say,"You are a Catholic: welcome to heaven,. You are not a Catholic, You cannot enter heaven is to go against God’s justice
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Actually, he is not speaking of salvation at all. Please go back and read prior posts.
 
maklavan said:
Pope Francis has merely restated traditional Catholic teaching. The Catholic Catechism states that anyone who lives a good life, according to his/her conscience can be saved. To say only Catholics can be saved,or only Christians can be saved,i so deny what Jesus died for.God is just,and does not have favourites, To say,"You are a Catholic: welcome to heaven,. You are not a Catholic, You cannot enter heaven is to go against God’s justice
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This isn’t true because he wasn’t talking about salvation.

But this is exactly the kind of confusion I’ve been saying will come from this, this is why it’s so frustrating :confused:
 
McCall1981 said:
This isn’t true because he wasn’t talking about salvation.

But this is exactly the kind of confusion I’ve been saying will come from this, this is why it’s so frustrating :confused:
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I think the problem today is that we are all so interconnected with social media that the word goes around quickly and gets to people it was not intended. Pope Francis was speaking at a homily, so his intended audience were Catholics who should (and I know many can’t) be able to understand the distinction. Or if they can’t then they should ask their priest or catechist or someone. But this goes on Huffington Post, I’m not even sure if the writer was Catholic, and everyone just took it for what they thought it was.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I think the problem today is that we are all so interconnected with social media that the word goes around quickly and gets to people it was not intended. Pope Francis was speaking at a homily, so his intended audience were Catholics who should (and I know many can’t) be able to understand the distinction. Or if they can’t then they should ask their priest or catechist or someone. But this goes on Huffington Post, I’m not even sure if the writer was Catholic, and everyone just took it for what they thought it was.
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But that’s the thing. The Pope has got to know that his homilies get out there to the rest of the world. His intended audience is really “the world”.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I think the problem today is that we are all so interconnected with social media that the word goes around quickly and gets to people it was not intended. Pope Francis was speaking at a homily, so his intended audience were Catholics who should (and I know many can’t) be able to understand the distinction. Or if they can’t then they should ask their priest or catechist or someone. But this goes on Huffington Post, I’m not even sure if the writer was Catholic, and everyone just took it for what they thought it was.
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Lucky7 said:
But that’s the thing. The Pope has got to know that his homilies get out there to the rest of the world. His intended audience is really “the world”.
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Totally agree with you both here.
 
Lucky7 said:
But that’s the thing. The Pope has got to know that his homilies get out there to the rest of the world. His intended audience is really “the world”.
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But then we would reduce his homilies to simplistic preaching meant for unbelievers, which would then deprive the Catholics spiritual nourishment from their chief pastor.

I certainly wouldn’t want Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA to pull his punches on a homily. If he’s speaking to a general audience, then yes. But even with the knowledge that what he says can be put on the media, he should preach to an Orthodox crowd if he is preaching in a homily. The same for Pope Francis. This was a homily, it should be addressed to Catholics.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But then we would reduce his homilies to simplistic preaching meant for unbelievers, which would then deprive the Catholics spiritual nourishment from their chief pastor.

I certainly wouldn’t want Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA to pull his punches on a homily. If he’s speaking to a general audience, then yes. But even with the knowledge that what he says can be put on the media, he should preach to an Orthodox crowd if he is preaching in a homily. The same for Pope Francis. This was a homily, it should be addressed to Catholics.
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Like I said in another thread, he could have easily added a line/a few words to avoid the confusion that has come about from this homily. That addition would not have made it “simplistic” by any means.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But then we would reduce his homilies to simplistic preaching meant for unbelievers, which would then deprive the Catholics spiritual nourishment from their chief pastor.

I certainly wouldn’t want Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA to pull his punches on a homily. If he’s speaking to a general audience, then yes. But even with the knowledge that what he says can be put on the media, he should preach to an Orthodox crowd if he is preaching in a homily. The same for Pope Francis. This was a homily, it should be addressed to Catholics.
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I don’t think it’s “pull his punches” as in water it down to appease the crowd. It’s just know that if you say something that can possibly be interpreted poorly, it will be interpreted poorly. And that without clarity, most Catholics are going to be confused. Look at all the threads just in CAF where Catholics are confused, and this is a self-selecting group of people who are identified as Catholic, so they’re going to be generally more knowledgable about theology than the general population, and even here there is tons of confusion.
 
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