The Lord`s prayer

[Dulcinea2721]

Two tenets of protestants are 1. Salvation by faith alone (works are not needed) and 2. Once you are ‘saved’ by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour because Jesus paid in full for our sins. Once you are saved, you are forever saved.

Can anyone explain why they say the Lord`s prayer?

Especially the part about forgive us our trespasses. If they are saved should it not say ‘Thank you for having forgiven us our sins’. ?

As we forgive those who trespass against us…Is that not a ‘work’?

This makes no sense to me but before I engage in a conversation with a protestant I was wondering if there is something that I am missing.

 

[benjohnson]

Two tenets of some protestants are…

 

[Dulcinea2721]

OK I stand corrected `some’ …any thought on the questions?

 

[ltwin]

Two tenets of protestants are 1. Salvation by faith alone (works are not needed)

Actually the “Protestant” tenet is “justification by faith alone.” Sanctification is part of salvation, but this is not a work of ourselves but accomplished in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

and 2. Once you are ‘saved’ by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour because Jesus paid in full for our sins. Once you are saved, you are forever saved.

You are wrong. This is called “Once Saved Always Saved” and it is certainly not a mindset held by all Protestants.

Can anyone explain why they say the Lord`s prayer?

Especially the part about forgive us our trespasses. If they are saved should it not say ‘Thank you for having forgiven us our sins’. ?

Protestants do ask God for forgiveness of sin. We also believe in following Jesus’ example. Simply put, the Lord’s Prayer does not violate “our” theology.

I’ve heard some Protestants say that all our past, present, and future sins are forgiven. I don’t know where this teaching comes from, but it is not biblical.

The Bible says, “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

As we forgive those who trespass against us…Is that not a ‘work’?

No. Because our salvation is not dependent on how well we fulfill the command to love others. Yes, we should forgive others, and if we do not, the Word does say that God will not forgive us (Matthew 6:15). But there is also forgiveness for this sin of omission as well. If we repent of all our failures and sin, God will be merciful. Our security is in Christ.

 

[benjohnson]

OK I stand corrected `some’ …any thought on the questions?

You’re a better person than I am… I usually sit corrected.

We Lutherans are known to be stubborn about “Faith Alone” in salvation - in that no works are necessary. And good thing too - as the works of man are worthless for repaying sin. However, we do say that good works will be a response to God’s Grace.

If you care to probe more, you can read the Lutherans and Catholics Joint Decleration on Justification : vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

We almost come to the same conclusion - almost different sides of the same paper thin coin, from different approaches.

Now as far as Once Saved Always Saved - Lutherans reject this as it’s possible to turn away from God’s gifts. We understand that God is all powerful, but that he has granted us poor creatures the ability to freely accept or reject these gifts, and we should pray that He grants strength to our faith.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Maybe a better question, OP, is IF a Protestant accepts both “sola fide” and “once saved always saved” (and many, though not all do) why would that Protestant pray the Lord’s Prayer. You’ll find Protestants tend to protest quite a bit about everything, so framing the question the way you did will bring the kind of responses that you have above.

 

[dronald]

Two tenets of protestants are 1. Salvation by faith alone (works are not needed) and 2. Once you are ‘saved’ by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour because Jesus paid in full for our sins. Once you are saved, you are forever saved.

Can anyone explain why they say the Lord`s prayer?

Especially the part about forgive us our trespasses. If they are saved should it not say ‘Thank you for having forgiven us our sins’. ?

As we forgive those who trespass against us…Is that not a ‘work’?

This makes no sense to me but before I engage in a conversation with a protestant I was wondering if there is something that I am missing.

1. Catholics and Protestants need to stop arguing this point. We all agree that we are saved by Grace through Faith; we also all agree that Faith produce works. How we use words is where the confusion often is. We essentially agree on Salvation and works.
2. As long as you still have Faith in Christ and do His will, sure you can be certain of your Salvation. If you wither and reject Christ and no longer believe in Him, then you can’t be sure.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Actually the “Protestant” tenet is “justification by faith alone.” Sanctification is part of salvation, but this is not a work of ourselves but accomplished in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You are wrong. This is called “Once Saved Always Saved” and it is certainly not a mindset held by all Protestants.

Protestants do ask God for forgiveness of sin. We also believe in following Jesus’ example. Simply put, the Lord’s Prayer does not violate “our” theology.

I’ve heard some Protestants say that all our past, present, and future sins are forgiven. I don’t know where this teaching comes from, but it is not biblical.

The Bible says, “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27)

No. Because our salvation is not dependent on how well we fulfill the command to love others. Yes, we should forgive others, and if we do not, the Word does say that God will not forgive us (Matthew 6:15). But there is also forgiveness for this sin of omission as well. If we repent of all our failures and sin, God will be merciful. Our security is in Christ.

1. Faith alone refers to justification NOT salvation, ok got it. So in other words if I smash my dad’s car as long as he forgives me then I do not have to fix or pay for the car.
2. I guess the par about ‘Once saved always saved’ does not apply to you since you do not believe that but SOME (see I am learning!) protestants believe this, therefore for THEM, the ‘forgive us our trespasses’ bit would not make sense.

Thank you for replying.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

1. Catholics and Protestants need to stop arguing this point. We all agree that we are saved by Grace through Faith; we also all agree that Faith produce works. How we use words is where the confusion often is. We essentially agree on Salvation and works.
2. As long as you still have Faith in Christ and do His will, sure you can be certain of your Salvation. If you wither and reject Christ and no longer believe in Him, then you can’t be sure.

What you are saying is in a nutshell what I have always believed.

I just got stumped when I had a conversation with someone who claimed that they could do whatever they wanted including murder and still be just as saved as the next benevolent person attempting to live life as an instrument of God.

All I could reply was ‘I am not the one who will judge’. However that conversation set off a lot of thoughts and probed me to investigate if Christians actually believe this.

Thanks for your reply

 

[ltwin]

1. Faith alone refers to justification NOT salvation, ok got it. So in other words if I smash my dad’s car as long as he forgives me then I do not have to fix or pay for the car.

Well, no. Your elder brother (Jesus) has paid for/fixed the car.

Now, if you keep on wrecking the car, then you have a problem. Or if you simply “hide” the car in the woods and pretend as if nothing happened and never confess to your father what you did, then you would have a problem.

 

[Stilldreamn]

1. Faith alone refers to justification NOT salvation, ok got it. So in other words if I smash my dad’s car as long as he forgives me then I do not have to fix or pay for the car.

If my Dad’s car was priceless, and he saw that nothing I could do or earn could possibly pay him back and still forgave me…I would be thankful for his mercy.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Maybe a better question, OP, is IF a Protestant accepts both “sola fide” and “once saved always saved” (and many, though not all do) why would that Protestant pray the Lord’s Prayer. You’ll find Protestants tend to protest quite a bit about everything, so framing the question the way you did will bring the kind of responses that you have above.

Thanks for the heads-up I will be more specific in the future. With 33k+ sects of protestants I guess it is virtually impossible to ask a general question.

 

[andrewstx]

There are many Protestant fundamentalists who never say the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer at all.

Those who have a strong pietistic background believe that every word of every prayer must be made up on the spot to be ‘sincere, heard by God’. Written prayers even from Our Lord are evil and ‘insincere’ because they are prewriiten.

When I was raised in different fundamental denominations I never heard the Lord’s Prayer. I was taught that is was only something of an example only to model your own extempore prayers on and nothing else.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Well, no. Your elder brother (Jesus) has paid for/fixed the car.

Now, if you keep on wrecking the car, then you have a problem. Or if you simply “hide” the car in the woods and pretend as if nothing happened and never confess to your father what you did, then you would have a problem.

Why would I have a problem if I continue to wreck the car?

 

[Dulcinea2721]

There are many Protestant fundamentalists who never say the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer at all.

Those who have a strong pietistic background believe that every word of every prayer must be made up on the spot to be ‘sincere, heard by God’. Written prayers even from Our Lord are evil and ‘insincere’ because they are prewriiten.

When I was raised in different fundamental denominations I never heard the Lord’s Prayer. I was taught that is was only something of an example only to model your own extempore prayers on and nothing else.

Thank you !

 

[PietroPaolo]

Thanks for the heads-up I will be more specific in the future. With 33k+ sects of protestants I guess it is virtually impossible to ask a general question.

Exactly.

 

[ltwin]

Why would I have a problem if I continue to wreck the car?

Because willfully committing the same sins over and over again makes a mockery out of Christ’s death on the Cross and the grace of God and grieves the Holy Spirit. If one persists in an unrepentant state long enough, eventually their heart hardens until they are turned over completely to their sins and their depraved mind.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Because willfully committing the same sins over and over again makes a mockery out of Christ’s death on the Cross and the grace of God and grieves the Holy Spirit. If one persists in an unrepentant state long enough, eventually their heart hardens until they are turned over completely to their sins and their depraved mind.

 

[Dulcinea2721]

Because willfully committing the same sins over and over again makes a mockery out of Christ’s death on the Cross and the grace of God and grieves the Holy Spirit. If one persists in an unrepentant state long enough, eventually their heart hardens until they are turned over completely to their sins and their depraved mind.

If I am trying not to sin, I am doing something, in the same way that trying to live up to the image and likeness of God in which I was created is doing something. In asking for forgiveness of sins, I am in essence saying ‘I will try to do better’. That to me constitutes a doing.

This is the part that I do not understand, going back to the car analogy, let’s say that the car is priceless/rare/not able to be replaced or fixed. I say to my dad, I am really sorry, I know that I cannot fix the car but I will shovel your snow for the entire winter as a token. I know full well that shoveling is not going to replace his loss, even if it has been the longest winter ever, but it is a sign of goodwill on my part.

I would think that this is worth something.

In comparison to ‘Thanks for forgiving me you are the best…good luck with your jobs I have to go play tennis’, or maybe without the acknowledgement that work even needs to be done.

From your perspective, are these 2 scenarios even?

 

[wmscott]

No. Because our salvation is not dependent on how well we fulfill the command to love others. Yes, we should forgive others, and if we do not, the Word does say that God will not forgive us (Matthew 6:15). But there is also forgiveness for this sin of omission as well. If we repent of all our failures and sin, God will be merciful. Our security is in Christ.

So can you reconcile this with Matthew 25:34-46

[34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

So how do you explain Jesus telling us that good works do affect our salvation?

Continued in next post