The Lord's Prayer and Predestination

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ralphinal

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If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?
 
ralphinal said:
If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?
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God has foreknowledge but He does not squash our free will.
 
Mickey said:
God has foreknowledge but He does not squash our free will.
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Well, that is what I thought. That is Catholic thought, and I think Orthodox as well.

I want to see what the Calvinists say…
 
ralphinal said:
If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?
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On the same note … why if we are truly pre-destined is there a judgement at death? Why would God tell you something you already know? If you already know then it is not a judgement?
 
ralphinal said:
If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?
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Great question!
 
ralphinal said:
If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?
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Actually this could work just as well the other way: why do we need to pray if our free will is enough to keep us from falling into sin? Why not just rely on our own resolution?

It is precisely passages like this on which St. Augustine relied for his doctrine of grace.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Actually this could work just as well the other way: why do we need to pray if our free will is enough to keep us from falling into sin? Why not just rely on our own resolution?

It is precisely passages like this on which St. Augustine relied for his doctrine of grace.

Edwin
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Because our fallen nature tends to force our free will away from God. In this passage, we ackowledge that we need God’s help to avoid sin. In fact, this points to the fact that we cannot go it alone and it seems to say that there is no such thing as assured salvation
 
Prayer is God’s mean to conform our will to His will. If God predetermines the end, He will also provide the means to accomplish this end. Prayer is one of those means to accomplish His ordained end.
 
Reformed said:
Prayer is God’s mean to conform our will to His will. If God predetermines the end, He will also provide the means to accomplish this end. Prayer is one of those means to accomplish His ordained end.
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Ok, I have no issue with that.

Specifically, why should we ask that we not be tempted? If we cannot fall away once we are saved, who cares? If we are assured salvation, why does it matter?
 
ralphinal said:
Ok, I have no issue with that.

Specifically, why should we ask that we not be tempted? If we cannot fall away once we are saved, who cares? If we are assured salvation, why does it matter?
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Because God tells us to do it. We don’t have to understand all the mysteries of God, we just have to obey by His enabling grace through the Spirit. Do you seem to agree? It’s God’s world and He in His amazing grace, revealed Himself and His plan to us through His Holy Scriptures. God in His kindness, gave us His Spirt to dwell in us so we can progressively understand Him in awe and thanksgiving in all that He is accomplishing throoughout history. We have been born again into a living hope that all that God has revealed in the Scriptures will come to pass. Who can stop the plans of God?
 
Contarini said:
Actually this could work just as well the other way: why do we need to pray if our free will is enough to keep us from falling into sin? Why not just rely on our own resolution?

It is precisely passages like this on which St. Augustine relied for his doctrine of grace.
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What is the pertinent writing of Augustine on this issue?
 
Reformed said:
Because God tells us to do it. We don’t have to understand all the mysteries of God, we just have to obey by His enabling grace through the Spirit. Do you seem to agree? It’s God’s world and He in His amazing grace, revealed Himself and His plan to us through His Holy Scriptures. God in His kindness, gave us His Spirt to dwell in us so we can progressively understand Him in awe and thanksgiving in all that He is accomplishing throoughout history. We have been born again into a living hope that all that God has revealed in the Scriptures will come to pass. Who can stop the plans of God?
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So God is commanding us to pray with empty words that have no meaning? Or no relevance?

I don’t disagree with what you are saying on this post either. You just have not answered how this fits with assured salvation or predestination.
 
Reformed said:
God tells us to do it.
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Because the evil one and his minions can easily tempt us and cause us to backslide.
Reformed said:
We don’t have to understand all the mysteries of God, we just have to obey by His enabling grace through the Spirit.
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And the Holy Eucharist is a glorious Mystery.
Reformed said:
It’s God’s world and He in His amazing grace, revealed Himself and His plan to us through His Holy Scriptures.
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And His Apostolic Church.
Reformed said:
We have been born again
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Through the Mystery of Holy Baptism.
Reformed said:
Who can stop the plans of God?
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No one.
 
ralphinal said:
So God is commanding us to pray with empty words that have no meaning? Or no relevance?

I don’t disagree with what you are saying on this post either. You just have not answered how this fits with assured salvation or predestination.
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Or course not. I don’t have to understand what God commands us to do because I know all that God is right is perfect, wise, and glorious…therefore, by the grace of God by the Spirit I try to do what God commands me to do as a child of God. Sin and rebellion is doing the opposite of what God tells us to do. We walk by faith and not by sight. All great biblical truths have tension. We receive them as truth by faith and not by logic. How logical is the doctrine of the Trinity, or the dual nature of Jesus Christ? Predestination and man’s responsibilty, inability and enabling grace ablity all have tenison… but are taught in the Scriptures. Therefore, we receive it as truth because God has revealed these truths to us in His Holy Word. Faith is believing all that God has spoken.

Predestination and obedience can be seen in this passage:

Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. - 2 peter
 
Reformed said:
All great biblical truths have tension. We receive them as truth by faith and not by logic. How logical is the doctrine of the Trinity, or the dual nature of Jesus Christ? Predestination and man’s responsibilty, inability and enabling grace ablity all have tenison… but are taught in the Scriptures.
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I do not think your conclusions here are correct. While the mystery of the Trinity or Christ’s natures are difficult to comprehend nothing in Scripture leads anyone to believe that Scripture supports both Trinity and non-Trinity conclusions. The dual nature of Christ is not contradicted by Scripture. It is a conclusion that is supported in Scripture.

Here … Ralph is saying Jesus’s words in the Lord’s prayer contradicts the conclusions drawn by those who believe predestination and assured salvation. Christ asked us to pray to avoid temptation from the evil one … why? What can the evil one do to the elect to harm them … what can the evil one do to the non-elect to change either one’s status before God?

What must Christ mean to you if assured salvation is the correct interpretation found in Scripture?
 
ncgolf said:
I do not think your conclusions here are correct. While the mystery of the Trinity or Christ’s natures are difficult to comprehend nothing in Scripture leads anyone to believe that Scripture supports both Trinity and non-Trinity conclusions. The dual nature of Christ is not contradicted by Scripture. It is a conclusion that is supported in Scripture.

Here … Ralph is saying Jesus’s words in the Lord’s prayer contradicts the conclusions drawn by those who believe predestination and assured salvation. Christ asked us to pray to avoid temptation from the evil one … why? What can the evil one do to the elect to harm them … what can the evil one do to the non-elect to change either one’s status before God?

What must Christ mean to you if assured salvation is the correct interpretation found in Scripture?
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I think you used to be a Mormon correct? I have to strongly refute you that Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. As Protetstant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians… we speak loudly and in complete unity that God reveals Himself in the godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Mickey said:
You are saying that Scripture does not clearly teach the Trinity? :confused:
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No, I wrote the exact opposite. The poster was a former Mormon. I responded that the Scriptures clearly teaches the Trinity. Please go back to my post on the subject. It would help if you quoted me in context. Why did you leave off the portion about the Mormon in context to your paste and cut. Did you intentionally misquote me?
Reformed said:
I think you used to be a Mormon correct? I have to strongly refute you that Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. As Protetstant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians… we speak loudly and in complete unity that God reveals Himself in the godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
 
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