The Lord's Prayer and Predestination

[M0nkey]

If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?

First of all, you are not ‘predestined’ to do anything. You may choose to do the right thing, or you may choose to do wrong.

We can loose our salvation.

The elect is the Church. The Church will be waiting for when Christ comes again.

Are you Catholic?

 

[M0nkey]

I’m not following your argument. How do you think you were able to believe in Christ, by your own free will or by the work of God the Holy Spirit?

We are not believers of Christ because of human knowledge. God had to become Christ in the incarnation first before we could believe in Him.

 

[ralphinal]

First of all, you are not ‘predestined’ to do anything. You may choose to do the right thing, or you may choose to do wrong.

We can loose our salvation.

The elect is the Church. The Church will be waiting for when Christ comes again.

Are you Catholic?

Yes.

Somehow, Catholics think that I am questioning the faith. I am not. I am trying to get Calvinists to explain how Jesus is contradicting their faith.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If we are truly predestined and we have no free will, why should we pray that we not be lead into temptation/put to the test/ whatever translation you use?

Why did Jesus include that if we could not lose salvation?

Why did he say that if the elect had no choice but to persevere?

That is not implied by predestination, Catholic, Calvinist, or any other AFAIK. “…the elect have no choice but to persevere…” is the sort of phrase that makes God’s gracious preservation of His own sound horrible: as though enjoyment of God for ever were an unspeakable horror ​

You’re making the Fundamentalist blunder of setting the means at odds with the ends - the Fundamentalist equivalent is to treat the sacraments as opposed to God’s grace, when they are channels of it. The free will of the justified is not destroyed by predestination: you’re assigning to God’s predestination of His elect something that man does by sin.

Maybe there should be a section for FAQs to which all the illusions on all sides could be relegated, so that people do not have to clear up misunderstandings time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time time after time after…but you get the idea.

Having to do so is ginormously tedious, as people point out. Then we would all have time to spare for other things.

FWIW, that prayer is only very indirectly about anything as secondary as salvation - far more important in every way is the Kingship of God: it is this Kingship, not man’s comfort , that is of supreme importance.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It’s truly weird–in order to answer your question, I picked up my copy of Augustine’s anti-Pelagian writings, opened it more or less at random, and lo and behold there was a passage dealing with this (which may just be a sign of how common this argument is in Augustine):

How enlightening. Thanks!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4354082:

I’m not following your argument. How do you think you were able to believe in Christ, by your own free will or by the work of God the Holy Spirit?

We can’t accept Christ without his grace. His grace is available to all. We have the opportunity to accept this grace. This is an act of will, a cooperation with the grace of God.

Some accept God’s grace, some reject it.

Grace is necessary for salvation, but it won’t help you if you reject it.

 

[ralphinal]

I was hoping for a good discussion.