The Lord's Prayer during Mass

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Hi,
Except that folding your hands is neither distracting nor does it inherently force people to join in or not join in a non-required action.
The discussion is about posture during the Lord’s Prayer. None is prescribed, therefore there is no instruction about this specific situation. Personal interpretations of general instructions are fine, but not an official instruction.

My point is that if you apply some rule to one posture, it must be applied to all. I don’t particularly like hand-holding, but it is just as wrong to try to forbid it as it is to try to force it.

Lux
 
If no particular posture is given for a liturgical rite, perhaps the “default” liturgical posture should be assumed, no?

Is there a default posture for the laity when they are kneeling, seated, and standing? The default posture I use is to have my hands folded in front of me (on my lap or on my lower chest or on the top of the pew in front of me, depending on whether I am sitting, standing, or kneeling) or to have my palms placed together (which I reserve, lately, only for the Communion procession).

Why assume a posture other than a “default” one unless a posture is stated? That is, why aren’t people standing in the orans whenever they’re standing, for presidential prayers, for the Creed, etc.? Why aren’t they holding hands when they recite the Gloria, the Creed, or the Kyrie?
 
The mimicking the priest thing is actually the problem. One thing that should have been done during the reform was that when the Our Father was made a communal prayer, the rubrics should have been amended to keep the priest’s hands together, since it was no longer a presidential prayer. This would have stopped the whole hand-holding business in the bud.

I guess it’s not too late yet, but it must come from Rome.
I agree. I read that having the Priest continue with his hands as if he were saying the prayer for all of us, instead of bringing them down and in possibly caused some confusion.

Some things though I have no idea where they came from such as the “back at cha!” hand flip. I hope the people in my parish who do this noticed that when we had a lot of priests for our penance service that not one of them did it back at our priest from their places in the first pew. 😉

And to the original poster…no one has to hold hands. I do because it’s the accepted practice in our parish but if I was immuno-compromised as your Mom I would certainly not do it.
 
Hi,

The discussion is about posture during the Lord’s Prayer. None is prescribed, therefore there is no instruction about this specific situation. Personal interpretations of general instructions are fine, but not an official instruction.

My point is that if you apply some rule to one posture, it must be applied to all. I don’t particularly like hand-holding, but it is just as wrong to try to forbid it as it is to try to force it.

Lux
But what was the position used BEFORE the hand holding? I would guess probably folded. Probably had been since as long as anyone can remember so I think its disingenous of you to compare it to the handholding or ORANS.
 
When the Second Vatican Council said “Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority,” The council Fathers meant what they said.

They did not mean that the pentecostal movement (who now call themselved “charismatics”) are exempt from this.

They did not mean that individual communities can add whatever they please to the Mass.

They did not mean that individual priests can add something to the Mass which isn’t there.

They did not mean that if an individual person says “I don’t see anything wrong with it” then it can be added.

They did not mean that every possible liturgical abuse would be articulated by Rome and if it’s not on that list, it’s permitted.

They did not mean that people can take silly, secular gestures and add them to the Mass.

They did not mean that people can say “if it makes me feel good, I’ll add it to the Mass”

The words “Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority,” mean what they say.

“No other person” means “no other person”
“even if he be a priest” means “even if he be a priest”
“may add…anythinig” means “may add anything”
“on his own authority” means “on his own authority (without the approval of the Holy See which reserves that authority to itself)”

Hand-holding during the Our Father is not by any possible standard a legitimate addition to the Mass.
you go FrDavid96! 👍
 
OP, please don’t teach your four year old to “go with the flow” and hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer.😦

Teach your child what your mother taught you. Fold his/her hands and bow head and pray from the heart.:gopray2:
 
But what was the position used BEFORE the hand holding? I would guess probably folded. Probably had been since as long as anyone can remember so I think its disingenous of you to compare it to the handholding or ORANS.
OK—don’t compare. No posture is prescribed period. No respectful posture specified or forbidden.
 
OK—don’t compare. No posture is prescribed period. No respectful posture specified or forbidden.
**🙂 Agreed! **I’ll remember that next time some stranger at Mass pokes my shoulder or glares at me when I don’t go into the automatic stretch-across-the-aisles mode at the start of the Our Father. 😃
 
and I certainly agree that this is out of place. I will take a hand near me if offered, but definitely let the conga lines go without me.

Lux
 
**🙂 Agreed! **I’ll remember that next time some stranger at Mass pokes my shoulder or glares at me when I don’t go into the automatic stretch-across-the-aisles mode at the start of the Our Father. 😃
I mean, that’s the whole issue here - I can’t imagine thinking I had the right to force someone to hold my hand, ESPECIALLY at Mass. I think it also goes along with the whole “introvert/extrovert” personality difference. You can not make someone want to interact with you, especially during an important moment like the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer.

The response I’ve received in this forum has definitely empowered me to continue to NOT hold hands. I also feel “armed” with enough knowledge to speak to my four year old son about it. I do see the priest stalling as he allows everyone to stretch across the aisle, etc. and I do see the sigh of relief fall over the church when they are able to release hands. It is a disruption in the flow of the Mass…in my little “introvert” opinion!
 
I would be fine to eliminate the hand-holding during the Lord’s prayer, as I agree it is a little distracting. I think there are many more serious issues requiring our attention at present, however, to focus much personal effort on this particular endeavor.

I would like to suggest, though, that people sometimes be willing to temper their actions when it comes to children. I know a child who took it as a personal affront to have an adult decline to hold her hand in this time of the service. Another time, a very young boy was trying as hard as he could manage to reach my hand from the pew across the aisle (not ordinarily the way it’s done in our parish), I could have ignored the child’s stretching effort, but, instead, I walked into the aisle a bit and took his hand. I think this is part of what humility is all about. These innocents don’t deserve to have their feelings hurt just so we can be consistent in displaying our displeasure at church policy.
 
OK—don’t compare. No posture is prescribed period. No respectful posture specified or forbidden.
I think you missed my point, albeit intentionally here. Instead of these new gestures being added why don’t we do whatever was done for years and years…and years…which I would say is praying, probably with your hands folded or clasped. It was definitely “not” holding hands or “arms raised”. That was “ADDED”.
 
Hi again,

I did not miss your point. If you insist on a posture, you are missing the point of the response of the USCCB----

No posture is prescribed.

Lux
 
I I would like to suggest, though, that people sometimes be willing to temper their actions when it comes to children. I know a child who took it as a personal affront to have an adult decline to hold her hand in this time of the service. Another time, a very young boy was trying as hard as he could manage to reach my hand from the pew across the aisle (not ordinarily the way it’s done in our parish), I could have ignored the child’s stretching effort, but, instead, I walked into the aisle a bit and took his hand. I think this is part of what humility is all about.
I think everyone would agree that, in cases like this, charity demands doing exactly what you did. 👍
These innocents don’t deserve to have their feelings hurt just so we can be consistent in displaying our displeasure at church policy.
The issue here is NOT nor ever has been some kind of protest action over "church policy – it IS all about being compelled to participate in an activitity during the Liturgy that is offensive to some, annoying to many, and not required for anybody. :cool:
 
the CDW has stated in at least one published dubium that the posture of the faithful during the our father is not tightly regulated.

Therefore, since nothing is prescribed, and it is not tightly regulated, any reasonable posture is permitted, but none can be required.

As for the “100 years”, that was (IIRC) Vatican I’s definition; Trent’s was 300 years!
 
the CDW has stated in at least one published dubium that the posture of the faithful during the our father is not tightly regulated.

Therefore, since nothing is prescribed, and it is not tightly regulated, any reasonable posture is permitted, but none can be required.

As for the “100 years”, that was (IIRC) Vatican I’s definition; Trent’s was 300 years!
Can you show us what the dubium is? The only one that I have seen that indicates that posture should not be tightly regulated concerns the position of the faithful after the reception of Holy Communion.
 
Actually, ncjohn, the USCCB does not have that kind of authority. They have limited authority, but, not absolute. In other words, they cannot create something new.
I absolutely agree that they don’t have the authority to create something “new” without approval. But the DO have the ability to clarify that NO position is prescribed, to make it clear that individuals, “even if they be priests” don’t have the right to prescribe or to forbid the prayerful positions of individuals since it is not regulated by the liturgical books.
Furthermore, your final statement is ironic. Those who force themselves on the rest of the faithful by either grabbing their hands or making annoucements from the altar encouraging them to do the same are the ones imposing an unnecessary burden on the faithful.
There is absolutely nothing ironic at all. I have consistently, for many years, been just as forceful in condemning anyone “grabbing” at anyone else, or any third party calling for anyone to participate. That is indeed forbidden as that would indeed be “adding” something to the liturgy.

Fr. David is indeed right that it is possible for someone other than a priest to be one “adding to the liturgy”, and I did not word my previous response well though it was indeed primarily at priests that the SC statement was aimed. Choir directors or other “liturgists” who suggest or demand things that are not part of the liturgy can indeed be adding things illicitly, but an individual’s posture in the pew cannot, though it may indeed be illicit by its very nature.

That is the fine point that consistently gets lost though. In the absence of someone else requesting it, the actions of an individual ARE NOT REGULATED and absolutely cannot “add to the liturgy.” If they could then any and every individual posture assumed by an individual, from folding their hands to just putting them on the back of the pew to sneezing could be interpreted as adding to the liturgy. You just don’t get to have it both ways and say to one group that their individual action is forbidden while telliing another that theirs is ok when NEITHER is addressed because there is no prescription.

Canon Law is pretty darn specific on this and those who continue to make claims of something being illicit when the Church specifically has declined to do so are clearly acting outside of their authority. Despise it as much as you want. Encourage others to stop doing it. Refuse to participate. Any of those are fine. Creating prohibitions of what is legitimate under the Church’s laws and casting judgments and aspersions on another’s legitimate prayer posture is to create a stumbling block and an unnecessary burden.

That the hatred exists no longer surprises me, though I do continue to be amazed at how much it upsets some people how someone else prays. I do recognize though that there are those for whom there is just “one right way” and that way is MY way. To that I would remind them of their oft-expressed credo that “the liturgy is not your private property.”

We each have our cross of having to bear things that others do differently from us and to understand that different doesn’t necessarily mean “bad”. Just a little bit of charity goes a long way.

Peace,
 
I absolutely agree that they don’t have the authority to create something “new” without approval. But the DO have the ability to clarify that NO position is prescribed, to make it clear that individuals, “even if they be priests” don’t have the right to prescribe or to forbid the prayerful positions of individuals since it is not regulated by the liturgical books.
There is absolutely nothing ironic at all. I have consistently, for many years, been just as forceful in condemning anyone “grabbing” at anyone else, or any third party calling for anyone to participate. That is indeed forbidden as that would indeed be “adding” something to the liturgy.

Fr. David is indeed right that it is possible for someone other than a priest to be one “adding to the liturgy”, and I did not word my previous response well though it was indeed primarily at priests that the SC statement was aimed. Choir directors or other “liturgists” who suggest or demand things that are not part of the liturgy can indeed be adding things illicitly, but an individual’s posture in the pew cannot, though it may indeed be illicit by its very nature.

That is the fine point that consistently gets lost though. In the absence of someone else requesting it, the actions of an individual ARE NOT REGULATED and absolutely cannot “add to the liturgy.” If they could then any and every individual posture assumed by an individual, from folding their hands to just putting them on the back of the pew to sneezing could be interpreted as adding to the liturgy. You just don’t get to have it both ways and say to one group that their individual action is forbidden while telliing another that theirs is ok when NEITHER is addressed because there is no prescription.

Canon Law is pretty darn specific on this and those who continue to make claims of something being illicit when the Church specifically has declined to do so are clearly acting outside of their authority. Despise it as much as you want. Encourage others to stop doing it. Refuse to participate. Any of those are fine. Creating prohibitions of what is legitimate under the Church’s laws and casting judgments and aspersions on another’s legitimate prayer posture is to create a stumbling block and an unnecessary burden.

That the hatred exists no longer surprises me, though I do continue to be amazed at how much it upsets some people how someone else prays. I do recognize though that there are those for whom there is just “one right way” and that way is MY way. To that I would remind them of their oft-expressed credo that “the liturgy is not your private property.”

We each have our cross of having to bear things that others do differently from us and to understand that different doesn’t necessarily mean “bad”. Just a little bit of charity goes a long way.

Peace,
However, you neglect one very important fact: no one, not even the priest, has any authority to add anything to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, per the Constitution on Sacred LIturgy. This certainly takes into account the “individual.”

Citing Canon Law doesn’t justify the fact that this practice should not be done. I seriously doubt that it was the intention of Pope John Paul II to open a pandora’s box of activities to be allowed into the Mass.

The fact remains that hand-holding during the Pater Noster adds nothing to the Mass and centers on the horizontal, rather than on the vertical dimension of the Mass.
 
That the hatred exists no longer surprises me, though I do continue to be amazed at how much it upsets some people how someone else prays. I do recognize though that there are those for whom there is just “one right way” and that way is MY way. To that I would remind them of their oft-expressed credo that “the liturgy is not your private property.”

We each have our cross of having to bear things that others do differently from us and to understand that different doesn’t necessarily mean “bad”. Just a little bit of charity goes a long way.
In my parish, it is the people desperately groping and grabbing for their neighbor’s folded hands, and stretching and leaping wildly across aisles to find any hand at all, who need to pay the most heed to the words written above. When it becomes a physically aggressive and invasive enforcement of “MY way” then it is truly a problem. The folks who silently keep their hands folded, and then come here to vent about it, can’t reasonably be accused of doing anything wrong, IMO.
 
Folks,
Here’s the difference between an individual posture, which is NOT prescribed, and a communal gesture, which is forbidden:

If the gesture or posture itself is indeed “individual” then there is no regulation, and no one, not even the priest presiding can regulate it.

A gesture or posture crosses the line and becomes a “communal gesture” when it reaches the point where it affects the rest of the congregation. This might happen because others are forced to participate (having their hands grabbed by neighbors), or forced by way of example into thinking that this is the “right way.” It also crosses that line when something is done in a way that it distracts others. Holding out one’s hands out or up in such a way as to block someone else’s “view” of the sanctuary would be an example of this.

I will agree with others that the priest presiding cannot compel anyone to have hands folded or placed together in prayer. To outright require this would indeed be beyond the priest’s competence. However, to instruct (key word) the congregation to have their hands folded is something different. It is the responsibility of the priest to instruct the congregation as to what are the proper (or improper) liturgical actions. Some proper postures during the Our Father would be to have one’s hands folded in prayer, to have one’s hands together with the fingers pointing upward in prayer, or even simply to rest one’s hands on the pew in front. Even holding a missal and reading from it at that time would be a legitimate posture (for those who might have a need to do so). There is no prescribed individual posture, and there are many more which would be perfectly fine at that moment.

However, while the priest cannot prescribe an individual posture, it is still his responsibility (and the responsibility of every Catholic) to make clear that corporate gestures which are not legitimate parts of the Mass are thereby not to be done; this is true by the simple fact that this is an example of teaching others what the Church has already clearly stated.

Hand-holding is anything but an individual gesture. There’s nothing wrong with a married couple, or parent-child holding hands (to name just 2 possible examples) during the Our Father, on two conditions: that this is truly an individual thing, and that it is not done in such a way as to be seen as the “right way” to place one’s hands during the Our Father.

We all know that hand-holding is not an individual gesture. The simple, and unavoidable reality is that in our contemporary church society, the practice of hand-holding has become a community gesture. It is dishonest for people to say that it’s an individual posture because the reality of our experience, and our common sense tell us otherwise. If we have 500 people at Mass and they are all holding hands, we cannot speak an untruth and say that 500 people are all doing 500 individual acts but they just happen to be doing the same thing at the same time. That is why hand-holding crosses that line and becomes a corporate gesture which would require the approval of the Holy See to be a licit gesture–and that approval has never been given. It also means that this corporate gesture is forbidden by every single example of liturgical teaching and liturgical law of the Church.
 
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