The Lord's Prayer during Mass

[FrDavid96]

And again we’re right back to the same problem: that you believe an individual’s gestures can “add to the liturgy”. Again I would challenge you to produce a single document from the Vatican that takes any such position.

As I said, when your entire argument is based on this foundational premise there is really nothing further to discuss.

It is not an individual gesture–it is a corporate gesture. Therefore asking me to provide documentation that an individual’s posture can be something added to the liturgy is not germane to the subject at hand.

I and others here have quoted documentation again-and-again that gestures may not be added to the Mass without the approval of the Holy See. Calling a corporate gesture an individual one does not make it licit, nor can it provide an excuse for introducing or perpetuating abuses within the Mass.

We cannot justify illicit acts within the Mass by playing word games–and that’s precisely what people do when they try to say that when a group is holding hands, but we’re not “all holding hands”, we’re just a bunch of individuals who happen to be holding each others’ hands at the same time.

 

[gospel_life]

However, the business of hand-holding is a whole other ball of wax and is most certainly NOT individual. As the old cliché goes “it takes two to tango” and a tango is not an individual dance. Similarly, neither is hand-holding an individual action. Think about it: when humans join hands, how is is possible to even remotely consider that an “individual action?” Rather like doing a tango solo.

hmmm…if I ask my wife to dance and she says no, there’s no tango. It still takes two people saying yes to make the tango.

 

[FrDavid96]

hmmm…if I ask my wife to dance and she says no, there’s no tango. It still takes two people saying yes to make the tango.

Well put–and that reminds us that if enough Catholics get the word out that hand holding is a liturgical abuse, and enough Catholics refuse to do this, it just might catch-on. In the words of Arlo Guthrie at the end of Alice’s Restaurant…(oh well, let’s not go there!)

It also means that if you have 100 people all lined up behind each other, each one with his hands on the hips of the one in front, and they’re all kicking at the same time, they’re doing the conga. They’re not 100 individuals who just happen to be doing the same thing at the same time. Call it an individual posture all you want, but it won’t change the fact that they’re doing the conga.

 

[malphono]

… It also means that if you have 100 people all lined up behind each other, each one with his hands on the hips of the one in front, and they’re all kicking at the same time, they’re doing the conga. They’re not 100 individuals who just happen to be doing the same thing at the same time. Call it an individual posture all you want, but it won’t change the fact that they’re doing the conga.

I wish I had thought of the conga line … the tango was a good example but the conga line is even more classic!

 

[Indyann]

I’m sorry to put it this way, but you’re being disingenuous here when you say that hand-holding is an individual gesture. As I said before experience and common sense tell us otherwise.

And to address your last point, it’s not up to individuals to make their own decisions on how Mass is celebrated: the Church does that.

Did you even read

archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

I think I will abide by the words of Archbishop of Denver over the words of an anonymous poster at CAF.

BTW, I am not a hand-holder because I do not like it. But, until word comes down from a higher authority, I will defend those who do like it.

 

[FrDavid96]

Did you even read

archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

I think I will abide by the words of Archbishop of Denver over the words of an anonymous poster at CAF.

BTW, I am not a hand-holder because I do not like it. But, until word comes down from a higher authority, I will defend those who do like it.

I will continue to abide by the words of the Second Vatican Council, and the liturgical laws of the Church. When the Supreme Authority in the Church gives His recognitio to the practice of hand-holding during the Our Father, I will say that this is a licit practice. Unless and until that happens, I will continue to hold that it is illicit.

Also, take note of the fact that the webpage referenced is dated 2002–16 months BEFORE Redemptionis Sacramentum which provided additional clarification on the prohibition against adding anything to the Sacred Liturgy.

 

[benedictgal]

I will continue to abide by the words of the Second Vatican Council, and the liturgical laws of the Church. When the Supreme Authority in the Church gives His recognitio to the practice of hand-holding during the Our Father, I will say that this is a licit practice. Unless and until that happens, I will continue to hold that it is illicit.

Also, take note of the fact that the webpage referenced is dated 2002–16 months BEFORE Redemptionis Sacramentum which provided additional clarification on the prohibition against adding anything to the Sacred Liturgy.

That is well-put, Fr. David. Furthermore, RS was drawn up precisely because people tended to start doing their own thing and the Holy See needed to address these abuses.

I am in no way saying that the Metropolitan Archbishop of Denver was doing so or advocating the practice; however, RS addresses matters like the hand-holding issue.

With all due respect, it’s funny that when people cannot quote authoritative documents of the Holy See, they will resort to whatever they can find on the internet, even though it may be outdated.

 

[PJM]

I grew up a in a very rural Catholic church an hour north of New Orleans. My mother taught me that when it was time to say the Lord’s Prayer, you bowed your head, folded your hands in prayer, closed your eyes, and spoke the words with all your heart. It was a special moment when all the voices in the church came together, yet it was a very personal experience. In the 1980’s when it suddenly became part of the Mass to hold hands with the person next to you, it really went against the way my mother taught us to pray. She told us that we did not have to hold anyone’s hand to say the Lord’s Prayer and she let it be our decision.

With all of this being said, I would like to know how this whole tradition of holding hands with strangers during Mass got started? Should I feel that I am rejecting my fellow parishoners when I do as I was raised and bow my head during the Lord’s prayer? When the hands are released, I notice a big sigh of relief fall over the entire church telling me people are not so comfortable with this fairly new tradition. I would like to know how other people feel about it. I have a four year old son who has begun to reach out and hold hands with other people during Mass and he recently asked me why I do not hold hands in church. I would like to present different perspectives, other than my “germ-phobic” one!

My dear friend in Christ,

You are truly Blessed with a very good Mother! God too, must be pleased. May God bless and care for all of you!

Two very important points:

1. Holding hands is yet another American catholic Church innovation.

It has no basis as a valid, current and licit practice. It certainly was neither authorized or even part of any Vatican II actual mandate.

I AM NOT ANTI-SOCIAL, BUT I AM CHRIST-CENTRIC! The sacred Liturgy is (or at least is supposed to be) a re-presenation; not a mere represenation; rather a re-presenation again and again of the the Supreme Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

It is about giving Honor, Praise, Worship and Glory to our God, made manifest and Present in His now Glorifed Body, in our midst!

The Mass is Valid even if noone but the priest is present, however in some mysterious way, our presence adds to a fuller expression of Worship.

2. Holding hands is an OPTION for all Roman Catholics. If you choose to not hold hands, or to hold hands only with those you know, that is your RIGHT and option.

I am all for an even more friendly and outgoing RCC, and envy outher Christian church’s there communities. However, they DO NOT HAVE THE REAL PRESENCE IN THERE MIDST, and we do.

I’d like to see more Kof C organizations sponcer coffee and doughtnuts in the community centers after every Mass. More parish picnics and the like. More parents involved in CCD programs and summer events for the entire family.

Mass is a very special time for us WITH OUR GOD, and we should do what ever we need to inorder to cement our relationship with HIM!

BVM please lead us to Jesus!
PJM m.c.

 

[Annc]

Absolutely! I’m extremely old-fashioned as compared to my peers, so I better get comfortable about explaining to my son why I do not follow the crowd. You guys have helped me feel less guilty about not holding hands and more confident in my decision to pray the way dear old mom taught us.

My family does not hold hands either and we have taught our children not to hold hands. We explained that people that do mean well but are misguided. We also kneel during the consecration when the rest of the congregation does not and we receive Holy Communion on the tongue. I have checked with my pastor on all these things and he is in agreement that they are better practices than the current norms.

Stick to the way you were brought up. Your mother did a great job.

God bless.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Did you even read

archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

I think I will abide by the words of Archbishop of Denver over the words of an anonymous poster at CAF.

BTW, I am not a hand-holder because I do not like it. But, until word comes down from a higher authority, I will defend those who do like it.

I agree on all points. No posture prescribed means no posture prescribed.

None of these gestures is mandated or forbidden by the Church. So our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.

Yes, I will take the interpretation of the archbishop over that of the random poster who takes what supports the preferred opinion, while rejecting the same principle in other similar situations because this is not their preference. If the posture of the laity is not to be regulated at one point, this would apply to the Lord’s prayer as well, especially since the USCCB has issued a statement reaffirming that no posture is prescribed.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

I agree on all points. No posture prescribed means no posture prescribed.

Yes, I will take the interpretation of the archbishop over that of the random poster who takes what supports the preferred opinion, while rejecting the same principle in other similar situations because this is not their preference. If the posture of the laity is not to be regulated at one point, this would apply to the Lord’s prayer as well, especially since the USCCB has issued a statement reaffirming that no posture is prescribed.

Lux

And I will continue to take the clear words of the Church, and the words of our Holy Father that the Mass is no one’s private property to be trifled-with over an argument from silence any day.

 

[benedictgal]

And I will continue to take the clear words of the Church, and the words of our Holy Father that the Mass is no one’s private property to be trifled-with over an argument from silence any day.

That is certainly true. Unfortunately, there are some who cannot connect the dots and see that the dates just don’t match up. I have nothing but the highest regard for the Metropolitan of Denver. However, as you astutely pointed out, the comments that the Metropolitan made preceded the promulgation of Redemptionis Sacramentum. He made these comments before the document of the Holy See.

What I do not understand is how some people can defend a position that is contrary to what the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy has to say, namely that no one has the right, even if he is a priest, to insert something into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that does not belong there.

We are not given carte blanche to do with as we please. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a free-form experiment in creativity. As Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect Emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship, wisely observed in 2005 that:

The faith of the Church has expressed itself in how the Church prays and especially in how she celebrates the Holy Eucharist and the other sacraments. There are words and concepts which have acquired a deep meaning in the Church’s life, faith and prayer along the centuries. Examples are person, trinity, divine majesty, incarnation, passion, resurrection, salvation, merit, grace, intercession, redemption, sin, repentance, forgiveness, propitiation, mercy, penance, reconciliation, communion and service. There are gestures and postures which help to express what the Church believes. Examples are the Sign of the Cross, bowing, kneeling, standing, listening and going in procession.

“The Church’s faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles”. (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] 1124) This is a strong argument in favor of great care in the wording, gestures and norms of liturgical celebrations.

The relation between the faith of the Church and her liturgical celebration has been encapsulated in the ancient saying, lex orandi, lex credendi (the law of prayer is the law of faith), or legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi (let the law of prayer determine the norm of faith). This statement of Catholic faith is credited to Prosper of Aquitaine of the 5th century. (Ep. 8) It is quoted in the Indiculus or the Pseudo-Celestine Chapters. Pope Celestine reigned from 422 to 432. (cf Ds 246)

The Church believes as she prays. The liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living tradition of the Church. (cf Dei Verbum 8) That is why the Church does not allow the minister or the community to modify or manipulate any sacramental or even general liturgical rite. “Even the supreme authority in the Church may not change the liturgy arbitrarily, but only in the obedience of faith and with religious respect for the mystery of the liturgy”. (CCC 1125)

Redemptionis Sacramentum is strong on this point: “The Church herself has no power over those things which were established by Christ Himself and which constitute an unchangeable part of the liturgy. Indeed, if the bond were to be broken which the sacraments have with Christ Himself who instituted them, and with the events of the Church’s founding, it would not be beneficial to the faithful but rather would do them grave harm. For the Sacred Liturgy is quite intimately connected with principles of doctrine, so that the use of unapproved texts and rites necessarily leads either to the attenuation or to the disappearance of that necessary link between the lex orandi and the lex credendi”. (RS 10)

Unfortunately, his words go unheeded when proponents of the hand-holding try to use every possible means to justify a practice that is wrong.

Incidentally, someone countered my comments regarding hand-holding at Papal Masses. One should bear in mind that the distance between the altar and the faithful is significantly greater at an open-air Mass than it is at St. Peter’s Basilica. In fact, I would hazard a guess that the distance between the altar and the first line of faithful is maybe 1/4 the size of a football field. Of course, the Holy Father isn’t going to see who is doing what. It’s as though one were at a football game and is seated up in the nose-bleed section. One is certainly not able to see Tony Romo frown when someone intercepts a pass (unless you’re looking at the jumbo tron). Or, if you’re at the AT&T Center and you are up in the rafters. You can’t very well see the look of joy on the face of Manu Ginobili when he hits a wild three-point shot. On TV, you see everything because the camera picks up the minutest detail. It’s not the same as experiencing it live, especially when you are a jillion yards away.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

And I will continue to take the clear words of the Church, and the words of our Holy Father that the Mass is no one’s private property to be trifled-with over an argument from silence any day.

Hi again,

Unfortuntely the clear words of which you speak are not so clear in this instance, as was shown. The pope has taken steps to have the faithful receive kneeling at his Masses, even though he has reassured us that the standing norm is perfectly valid, but his preference is kneeling. This is only his preference, but he has spoken out. Do you honestly believe he would not have gotten some word out if the handholding is an abuse?

No posture prescribed means just that.

Lux

 

[FrDavid96]

Hi again,

Unfortuntely the clear words of which you speak are not so clear in this instance, as was shown. The pope has taken steps to have the faithful receive kneeling at his Masses, even though he has reassured us that the standing norm is perfectly valid, but his preference is kneeling. This is only his preference, but he has spoken out. Do you honestly believe he would not have gotten some word out if the handholding is an abuse?

No posture prescribed means just that.

Lux

Here’s what I can’t see: Why don’t you see that “no one may add anything” means just that?

Redemptionis Sacramentum throws the argument from silence out the window:
[175.] **The things set forth in this Instruction obviously do not encompass all the violations against the Church and its discipline that are defined in the canons, in the liturgical laws and in other norms of the Church **for the sake of the teaching of the Magisterium or sound tradition. Where something wrong has been committed, it is to be corrected according to the norm of law.

 

[gospel_life]

Well put–and that reminds us that if enough Catholics get the word out that hand holding is a liturgical abuse, and enough Catholics refuse to do this, it just might catch-on.

Well, thanks, but my point was my disagreement with you and malphono. No matter how many people join into something it’s still just one person at a time making the decision.

Whether you have a conga line or 500 people standing with their hands folded, it’s an individual gesture and decision. Neither one is a corporate decision.

 

[FrDavid96]

Well, thanks, but my point was my disagreement with you and malphono. No matter how many people join into something it’s still just one person at a time making the decision.

Whether you have a conga line or 500 people standing with their hands folded, it’s an individual gesture and decision. Neither one is a corporate decision.

Sorry, but common sense and the plain meaning of the words say otherwise. A corporate gesture is a corporate gesture, no matter what sort of word games one tries to play.

 

[Aramis]

Sorry, but common sense and the plain meaning of the words say otherwise. A corporate gesture is a corporate gesture, no matter what sort of word games one tries to play.

And you are making a corporate gesture more than it is; a corporate gesture is one which is done by the whole body due to some rubric or instruction. An action of a body in union with its head.

The moment you as a celebrant (or a pastor) instruct on any posture not specifically forbidden and not specifically called for in the GIRM, RS, nor the missal in use, you are adding to the mass.

Provided that the action is neither called for by public instruction, nor enforced, and not specifically forbidden (such as the oremus posture during the embolism), it is “unregulated” and non-corporate.

If someone is enforcing some posture, yes, that’s corporate.
If someone is instructing on posture there, that’s corporate.

It becomes corporate when instructed for OR when enforced.

 

[malphono]

FrDavid96:

Sorry, but common sense and the plain meaning of the words say otherwise. A corporate gesture is a corporate gesture, no matter what sort of word games one tries to play.

And you are making a corporate gesture more than it is; a corporate gesture is one which is done by the whole body due to some rubric or instruction. An action of a body in union with its head.

The moment you as a celebrant (or a pastor) instruct on any posture not specifically forbidden and not specifically called for in the GIRM, RS, nor the missal in use, you are adding to the mass.

Provided that the action is neither called for by public instruction, nor enforced, and not specifically forbidden (such as the oremus posture during the embolism), it is “unregulated” and non-corporate.

If someone is enforcing some posture, yes, that’s corporate.
If someone is instructing on posture there, that’s corporate.

It becomes corporate when instructed for OR when enforced.

FWIW (and that’s probably not much) I disagree.

Going back to the conga line analogy, a conga line is not always anticipated (or “regulated” as you put it). It is often spontaneous, yet it is still a “corporate gesture” since it is a group activity.

Same with this hand-holding business. There may be no instruction to do it, but once it’s done it is a “corporate gesture” and we’re right back to FrDavid69’s interpretation.

 

[Aramis]

FWIW (and that’s probably not much) I disagree.

Going back to the conga line analogy, a conga line is not always anticipated (or “regulated” as you put it). It is often spontaneous, yet it is still a “corporate gesture” since it is a group activity.

Same with this hand-holding business. There may be no instruction to do it, but once it’s done it is a “corporate gesture” and we’re right back to FrDavid69’s interpretation.

In which case, any gestural unity is a violation of the instructions of the mass.

Which again goes against both the literal text of the GIRM, and the various statements of the CDW about the desire for unity in worship, as even everyone standing hands at their sides would become a corporate gesture and thus prohibited as it would be an addition to the mass.

 

[malphono]

In which case, any gestural unity is a violation of the instructions of the mass.

Which again goes against both the literal text of the GIRM, and the various statements of the CDW about the desire for unity in worship, as even everyone standing hands at their sides would become a corporate gesture and thus prohibited as it would be an addition to the mass.

:banghead: :banghead: