The Lord's Prayer

[adstrinity]

Who says it?

I have a friend who believes that we shouldn’t say it but rather follow the formula Jesus taught in it. We should pray LIKE it, but, goes with not pray it outright, per se.

I am curious how many here, if any, follow this line of reasoning.

 

[Publisher]

I do not pray the “Lord’s Prayer”…it is a guide on how prayer should be structured…or at least formulate in our hearts on what truly is important in prayer. That it became part of Christian liturgy is no great surprise. Must it be ‘prayed’ because Jesus instructed it to be…No…I think that is a very simplistic understanding of what he was trying to teach his disciples. “When you pray…pray like this…” meant so much more than repeating words written down by some anonymous writer 40-50 years after the fact.

 

[adstrinity]

I do not pray the “Lord’s Prayer”…it is a guide on how prayer should be structured…or at least formulate in our hearts on what truly is important in prayer. That it became part of Christian liturgy is no great surprise. Must it be ‘prayed’ because Jesus instructed it to be…No…I think that is a very simplistic understanding of what he was trying to teach his disciples. “When you pray…pray like this…” meant so much more than repeating words written down by some anonymous writer 40-50 years after the fact.

Alright. For those of us who do not view it this way (and thank you for answering), what is the formula followed? It has never been explained to me, but, I would love to know.

 

[elvisman]

I do not pray the “Lord’s Prayer”…it is a guide on how prayer should be structured…or at least formulate in our hearts on what truly is important in prayer. That it became part of Christian liturgy is no great surprise. Must it be ‘prayed’ because Jesus instructed it to be…No…I think that is a very simplistic understanding of what he was trying to teach his disciples. “When you pray…pray like this…” meant so much more than repeating words written down by some anonymous writer 40-50 years after the fact.

That’s funny - that’s not what scripture suggests. The prayer starts with “Our Father” - not “My Father”. It is clearly an instruction.

The tradition of reciting this prayer goes all the way back to the 1st century in the Didachae (the teachings of the Apostles)

Here are both passages (Matt. 6:9 and Luke 11:2) from 4 different translations - both Protestant and Catholic:
Matt. 6:9
NIV
This, then, is how you should pray:

NASB
Pray, then, in this way:

KJV
After this manner therefore pray ye:

ASV
After this manner therefore pray ye.

Luke 11:2
NIV
He said to them, "When you pray, say:

NASB
And He said to them, "When you pray, say:

KJV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

ASV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

 

[Publisher]

**That’s funny - that’s not **what scripture suggests. The prayer starts with “Our Father” - not “My Father”. It is clearly an instruction.

The tradition of reciting this prayer goes all the way back to the 1st century in the Didachae (the teachings of the Apostles)

Here are both passages (Matt. 6:9 and Luke 11:2) from 4 different translations - both Protestant and Catholic:
Matt. 6:9
NIV
This, then, is how you should pray:

NASB
Pray, then, in this way:

KJV
After this manner therefore pray ye:

ASV
After this manner therefore pray ye.

Luke 11:2
NIV
He said to them, "When you pray, say:

NASB
And He said to them, "When you pray, say:

KJV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

ASV
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,

That the writings used at the end of the first and beginning of the second century took on liturgical significance among many Christians who met for worship, we both agree on. That repeating the words recorded have some “mystical grace” to impart by simply repeating those words…we may disagree.

 

[elvisman]

That the writings used at the end of the first and beginning of the second century took on liturgical significance among many Christians who met for worship, we both agree on. That repeating the words recorded have some “mystical grace” to impart by simply repeating those words…we may disagree.

WRONG.
Jesus didn’t have anything against formulas. Otherwise he never would have commanded a Trinitarian formula for baptism in the great commission.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I pray it constantly and consistently as it is written. It gives me great strength against temptation and evil.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It’s curious that EVERY classical liturgy, including those of churches separated by hundreds of miles and hundreds of years from Rome, uses the Lord’s Prayer in it.

Think about it.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

It’s curious that EVERY classical liturgy, including those of churches separated by hundreds of miles and hundreds of years from Rome, uses the Lord’s Prayer in it.

Think about it.

Awesome!!

 

[Publisher]

If reciting the Lord’s Prayer provides strength and comfort, I think that is wonderful. Repeating the Lord’s Prayer for me does not offer the comfort and strength you have found. Using the Lord’s Prayer as a “structure” of frame my own prayer life around DOES do that for me.

Since I do not practice a “liturgy” other than the “liturgy of silence” in corporate worship, structured prayers and formulas mean little to me. The “Trinitarian formula” of water baptism is lost on me since Friends do not practice water baptism…nor do Friends practice the outward form of the Eucharist.

I love hearing the Lord’s Prayer sung however…some of the arrangements I’ve heard are very beautiful. In corporate worship however repititious prayer formulas do not “strengthen” my faith…communion after the manner of Friends gives me great peace and strength for living in the Light.

 

[Robbinson]

If reciting the Lord’s Prayer provides strength and comfort, I think that is wonderful. Repeating the Lord’s Prayer for me does not offer the comfort and strength you have found. Using the Lord’s Prayer as a “structure” of frame my own prayer life around DOES do that for me.

Since I do not practice a “liturgy” other than the “liturgy of silence” in corporate worship, structured prayers and formulas mean little to me. The “Trinitarian formula” of water baptism is lost on me since Friends do not practice water baptism…nor do Friends practice the outward form of the Eucharist.

I love hearing the Lord’s Prayer sung however…some of the arrangements I’ve heard are very beautiful. In corporate worship however repititious prayer formulas do not “strengthen” my faith…communion after the manner of Friends gives me great peace and strength for living in the Light.

I think there is a rythim, comfort and reverence that comes from the liturgy which just can’t be replicated in silent prayer (although silent prayer is good as a supplement).

While scripture tells us to avoid “***vain” ***repetition, it does not tell us to avoid established prayers like the Lord’s prayer. For that matter, the entire book of psalms in the Old Testatment (God’s words) were songs and prayers said over and over by the Jews during prayer (including by David and Solomon).

The Lord’s prayer was given to us directly by Christ - its a powerful prayer and if you break it down, it teaches a great deal about God’s soverignty, protection, refuge, forgiveness and hope.

I hope you experiment with it.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[tGette]

Who says it?

I have a friend who believes that we shouldn’t say it but rather follow the formula Jesus taught in it. We should pray LIKE it, but, goes with not pray it outright, per se.

I am curious how many here, if any, follow this line of reasoning.

I pray it!

I make sure that I pray it from the heart so that I am not simply repeating the words, but that I am meaning them.

Sometimes I will use it as a formula for a longer prayer I might make.

I try, among the many times I say it each day, to say one Our Father (Lord’s Prayer) with my own words. By that I mean, I break from the romance language and kind of improvise:

“Heavenly Father, Your are perfect and holy and because of that it is only right that Your name is perfect and holy. A name which describes your omnipotence, though just a word, contains in that word all Your awesome glory. I beg of You, Father, to bring Your Kingdom to us, and to work in every situation so that Your Holy Will can be done here on earth as it is always done with You in Heaven…”

I do not have a verbatim way of saying it…but it usually follows a similar wording.

That way…I know I pray at least one really heartfelt Our Father

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I do both as it is both a model and a liturgical prayer. Also, as an extended meditation, I say the words and after each phrase I think about it and talk to the Father about it.

 

[love4mary]

It might take me 3 or 4 minutes to pray the Our Father. After reading Scott Hahns book where he breaks down every part of the prayer, it has taken on more meaning for me, I understand the prayer in a more profound way now.

What drives me nuts is when the prayer is rushed through, like its a race to see how fast the prayer can be recited.

Jesus taught us this One and ONLY prayer in scripture. Its a complete prayer. Pray it with humble yearning for the Kingdom of God.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I do not pray the “Lord’s Prayer”…it is a guide on how prayer should be structured…or at least formulate in our hearts on what truly is important in prayer. That it became part of Christian liturgy is no great surprise. Must it be ‘prayed’ because Jesus instructed it to be…No…I think that is a very simplistic understanding of what he was trying to teach his disciples. “When you pray…pray like this…” meant so much more than repeating words written down by some anonymous writer 40-50 years after the fact.

You mean that writer that wrote that Jesus said "When you pray…(remember, Jesus didn’t say it to you. Otherwise you’re in a league with Joseph Smith)?

The Didache (c. 70-120) states that we should say the Our Father three times a day (following Hebrew practice). I’ll take a contemporary source, the unbroken Tradition of almost 2,000 years over my recent personal interpretation.

 

[elvisman]

If reciting the Lord’s Prayer provides strength and comfort, I think that is wonderful. Repeating the Lord’s Prayer for me does not offer the comfort and strength you have found. Using the Lord’s Prayer as a “structure” of frame my own prayer life around DOES do that for me.

Since I do not practice a “liturgy” other than the “liturgy of silence” in corporate worship, structured prayers and formulas mean little to me. The “Trinitarian formula” of water baptism is lost on me since Friends do not practice water baptism…nor do Friends practice the outward form of the Eucharist.

I love hearing the Lord’s Prayer sung however…some of the arrangements I’ve heard are very beautiful. In corporate worship however repititious prayer formulas do not “strengthen” my faith…communion after the manner of Friends gives me great peace and strength for living in the Light.

Then, consider Revelation 4:8 when it comes to repeating a formulaic prayer:
The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come."

Repetitious or formulaic prayers are beautiful. Like anything else, it is the meditation on what you are praying that drive the intent.

 

[Publisher]

I think there is a rythim, comfort and reverence that comes from the liturgy which just can’t be replicated in silent prayer (although silent prayer is good as a supplement).

While scripture tells us to avoid “***vain” ***repetition, it does not tell us to avoid established prayers like the Lord’s prayer. For that matter, the entire book of psalms in the Old Testatment (God’s words) were songs and prayers said over and over by the Jews during prayer (including by David and Solomon).

The Lord’s prayer was given to us directly by Christ - its a powerful prayer and if you break it down, it teaches a great deal about God’s soverignty, protection, refuge, forgiveness and hope.

I hope you experiment with it.

Blessings,

Brian

I am pleased that you have found such strength in the words of the “Lord’s Prayer”. I would in no way suggest you discontinue using it since you do.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the words of the “Lord’s Prayer” are rooted in the very words of Jesus himself. In the structure of the prayer I see and follow that structure and am awed by God’s soverignty, grateful for His protection and find in Him a Refuge. In Him I find fogiveness and hope too. I didn’t suggest it was “vain” repitition…but it can become such if the “meat” of the prayer is substuted for simply the words…the words have no power in an of themselves…it is not some magical incantation…those words must be “owned”, “experienced” and “embraced” to gleen the “power” from them by living those words daily.

The “liturgy of silence” Friends employ is not simply “silent prayer” it is deep meditative, contemplitive worship and prayer.

I have no wish to discourage your use of the “Lord’s Prayer” if it leads you to Him…the words alone do not do so for me.

 

[Publisher]

You mean that writer that wrote that Jesus said "When you pray…(remember, Jesus didn’t say it to you. Otherwise you’re in a league with Joseph Smith)?

The Didache (c. 70-120) states that we should say the Our Father three times a day (following Hebrew practice). I’ll take a contemporary source, the unbroken Tradition of almost 2,000 years over my recent personal interpretation.

And well you should follow the Light as He instructs you…I will do the same.

 

[Publisher]

Then, consider Revelation 4:8 when it comes to repeating a formulaic prayer:
The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

Repetitious or formulaic prayers are beautiful. Like anything else, it is the meditation on what you are praying that drive the intent.

Again, IF you find meaning and depth in such prayer, by all means use it…I find depth and meaning by centering myself in the Light, and Listening to His Voice…of allowing the Spirit to move within me and direct me to pray in the direction led.

In Meeting some have been led to seek to lead the Gathered Meeting in reciting the “Lord’s Prayer”, but those times are few and far between. It is not unheard of, but for most of us such times do not “speak to our condition” as we engage in corporate worship. We are not “against it”, we simply do not use it as often as others may think we should.

 

[BeeSweet]

… what is the formula followed? It has never been explained to me, but, I would love to know.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART FOUR
CHRISTIAN PRAYER

SECTION TWO
THE LORD’S PRAYER
“OUR FATHER!”

ARTICLE 4

2857 In the Our Father, the object of the first three petitions is the glory of the Father: the sanctification of his name, the coming of the kingdom, and the fulfillment of his will. The four others present our wants to him: they ask that our lives be nourished, healed of sin, and made victorious in the struggle of good over evil.

For the complete reading from the Catechism on the Lord’s Prayer, read #2759 - #2865. The seven petitions are:

      I. "Hallowed Be Thy Name"
     II. "Thy Kingdom Come"
    III. "The Will Be Done on Earth as It Is in Heaven"
     IV. "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread"
      V. "And Forgive us Our Trespasses, as We Forgive Those Who Trespass against Us"
     VI. "And Lead Us Not into Temptation"
    VII. "But Deliver Us From Evil"