The Lord's Prayer

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This might be an easy one, but a Protestant friend of mine went to his first Catholic service (a funeral) and he said they did the Lord’s prayer WRONG. He said, the Lord’s prayer the way it is printed in the Bible was not said. I didn’t really have the resources to get into a discussion about it, but I am assuming it depends on which version of the Bible you are using, no?
 
Thanks! So I guess my next question would be who made the change (the kingdom and the glory forever etc) and why?
 
i googled to find a page that had a bunch of different versions of the prayer, that was the second hit.

honestly i didnt dig into the site ant farther than that page.
 
This might be an easy one, but a Protestant friend of mine went to his first Catholic service (a funeral) and he said they did the Lord’s prayer WRONG. He said, the Lord’s prayer the way it is printed in the Bible was not said. I didn’t really have the resources to get into a discussion about it, but I am assuming it depends on which version of the Bible you are using, no?
I’m not really up on this one but it is my understanding that the Oldest manuscripts do ont contain the “Doxology” which is what your friend is probably refering to. “For thing is the kingdom…”
Of course the Church did add it to the liturgy but seperated it somewhat.

If you pull out your catholic bible and look at Matthew Chapeter 5 you should find it printed without the doxology and you can tell your friend that they DID do it just as it was printed. That might lead to an interesting discussion on Bibles and hisotry.

Peace
James
 
This might be an easy one, but a Protestant friend of mine went to his first Catholic service (a funeral) and he said they did the Lord’s prayer WRONG. He said, the Lord’s prayer the way it is printed in the Bible was not said. I didn’t really have the resources to get into a discussion about it, but I am assuming it depends on which version of the Bible you are using, no?
The original Lord’s Prayer was written in Greek. When the Greek has been translated into English the translators have sometimes used different English words. This explains why your friend might be used to saying, “And forgive us our debts,” whereas Catholics say, “And forgive us our trespasses.”

With respect the doxology (For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever), Haydock’s commentary on Matthew 6:13 says in part:In the Greek we here read, for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory; which words are found in some old Greek liturgies, and there is every appearance that they have thence slipped into the text of St. Matthew. They do not occur in St. Luke (xi. 4.), nor in any one of the old Latin copies, nor yet in the most ancient of the Greek texts. The holy Fathers prior to St. Chrysostom, as Grotius observes, who have explained the Lord’s prayer, never mention these words. — And not being found in Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, &c., nor in the Vatican Greek copy, nor in the Cambridge manuscripts. &c. as Dr. Wells also observes, it seems certain that they were only a pious conclusion, or doxology, with which the Greeks in the fourth age began to conclude their prayers, much after the same manner as, Glory be to the Father, &c. was added to the end of each psalm. We may reasonably presume, that these words at first were in the margin of some copies, and afterwards by some transcribers taken into the text itself. (Witham) (source)If your friend will not accept the idea that the doxology in Matthew’s version of the Lord’s Prayer might not be part of the original Bible text, as mentioned above, you might want to direct him to Luke’s version of the Lord’s Prayer, in Luke 11:2-4, where there is no doxology. Then explain to him that Catholics simply use Luke’s version.
 
Todd,
Thank you for your post. I find that I directed our friend to Matthew instead of Luke.:doh2:

Mea Culpa.:gopray2:

Peace
James
 
As was pointed out, in the context of the Mass, the doxology is seperated by an invocation that goes something like:
Deliver us Lord from all evil and grant us peace in our day. Keep us free from sin and anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
In part, this is recognition by the Church that the doxology is not, strictly speaking, part of the Our Father.

[BTW, for Catholics this prayer is properly called the “Our Father” rather than the “Lord’s Prayer” as is more common with Protestants. Catholics follow the ancient Jewish and early Church custom of referring to a prayer or psalm by it’s opening words.]
 
[BTW, for Catholics this prayer is properly called the “Our Father” rather than the “Lord’s Prayer” as is more common with Protestants. Catholics follow the ancient Jewish and early Church custom of referring to a prayer or psalm by it’s opening words.]
Makes sense. Thanks! 😉
 
Thanks! So I guess my next question would be who made the change (the kingdom and the glory forever etc) and why?
As far as I can trace back is the Tyndale NT of 1525. Why??? I am not sure am still looking for the answer myself.
 
As was pointed out, in the context of the Mass, the doxology is seperated by an invocation that goes something like:
In part, this is recognition by the Church that the doxology is not, strictly speaking, part of the Our Father.

[BTW, for Catholics this prayer is properly called the “Our Father” rather than the “Lord’s Prayer” as is more common with Protestants. Catholics follow the ancient Jewish and early Church custom of referring to a prayer or psalm by it’s opening words.]
I do believe its proper name in Mass is “Pater Noster” (which is Latin for “Our Father”) as all parts of mass I believe are Latin terms. Gloria, Agnus Dei, Creedo, Signus Crucis. But you are right it is “Our Father” instead of “Lord’s Prayer”.
 
The Didache (teaching of the Apostles) written around 70AD to 100AD and referenced by the Church on this states:

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord’s Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever.
 
The Didache (teaching of the Apostles) written around 70AD to 100AD and referenced by the Church on this states:

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord’s Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever.
Do you have a link to a place I can read the Didache online??? Good reference!!!
 
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