The Lord's Prayer

[ThomasDoubter]

Good to be back on here after some recent computer problems! Namely, affording a new one after the last one drew it’s last breath!!!

Anyway, I was recently having a theological conversation with some protestant friends of mine, when the subject of the Lord’s Prayer came up. I questioned why, in their church, it was not a prayer the congregation said in their services. They obviously allocated time for prayer, but it was on an individual, private basis.

Their argument was that the Lord’s Prayer is just an example of how we are meant to pray. But when I read Matthew 6:9, it seems pretty conclusive to me.

''So you should pray like this:

How is that interpreted as an example? This is one of several differences of opinion I could give, regarding our discussions together. They generally believe that I was not taught to read and understand scripture, as a result of my Catholic upbringing. That it was never available to me, and thus I have not the receptive qualities needed to understand it fully!

I would argue that there is no basis for assuming this is just an example. It is a definite statement in my view. Am I being inflexible here?

Am I wrong entrusting the tenets of my faith to theologians, or should I be trying to second guess it myself? (Okay, now I’m being facetious…)

God Bless all!

 

[Dave_B]

…They obviously allocated time for prayer, but it was on an individual, private basis…

The Our Father is not called the “My Father”. Our Father who are art in heaven… give us this day **our **daily bread…

The plurality would indicate not *just *an individual private prayer.

(At Anglican protestant churches we say the Our Father at nearly every service.)

God bless

 

[Barbkw]

The Confiteor, the Creed, the Great Amen, the Alleluia, and the Our Father are prayers we say in communion with other people. Each explain our faith and in them we give our “Yes” to the will of God.

I’m surprised actually, that protestant denominations don’t say the Our Father during worship services.

Interesting.

I know that some denominations refuse to submit to any sort of Creed.

 

[FightingFat]

Good to be back on here after some recent computer problems! Namely, affording a new one after the last one drew it’s last breath!!!

Anyway, I was recently having a theological conversation with some protestant friends of mine, when the subject of the Lord’s Prayer came up. I questioned why, in their church, it was not a prayer the congregation said in their services. They obviously allocated time for prayer, but it was on an individual, private basis.

Their argument was that the Lord’s Prayer is just an example of how we are meant to pray. But when I read Matthew 6:9, it seems pretty conclusive to me.

''So you should pray like this:

How is that interpreted as an example? This is one of several differences of opinion I could give, regarding our discussions together. They generally believe that I was not taught to read and understand scripture, as a result of my Catholic upbringing. That it was never available to me, and thus I have not the receptive qualities needed to understand it fully!

I would argue that there is no basis for assuming this is just an example. It is a definite statement in my view. Am I being inflexible here?

Am I wrong entrusting the tenets of my faith to theologians, or should I be trying to second guess it myself? (Okay, now I’m being facetious…)

God Bless all!

Some Protestant denominations appear to be afraid of anything prescribed. They shy away from liturgy, considering that one does not need a missal in order to shout “I love you!”

 

[JRKH]

I think that perhaps you are being a bit strict in your reading, but then I think they may be as well.
The Lords Prayer IS a “type” and as with many things in the Gospels one can draw much more from it than simply the words themselves.
The prayer may be said as written. Certainly there is no problem with this.
It may be said in groups or privately.
It may also be used to teach “how” to pray…

As an excersize, try praying the “Our Father” but in your “own” words (prarphrase) it. As you do it, note the order in which things are mentioned.
I have found this excersize very helpful in learning to pray better, more properly and effectively.

As to your friends comments on your ability to understand scripture - Right now they seem a bit narrowminded, but then we are all on a learning curve - Just keep engaging them in conversation and soon they will be learning from you as well (this is called exchange of knowledge…) Then they will see that Cathoilics CAN read and understand the bible…

Peace
James

 

[Barbkw]

The Our Father is a prepatory prayer before receiving Eucharist.

“Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who have trespassed against us.”

The prayer combines at least three Scriptural passages concerning love of God and love of neighbor prior to receiving Christ in the Eucharist.

Matthew 5:24

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

1 Corinthians 11:26

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12

Matthew 22: 36-40

“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”

He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians11.htm

P.S. Because the Catholic Church is a Sacramental Church (with Eucharist being the source and summit for each Mass) our communial prayers at Mass embrace unity, forgiveness, love of God, believing in God’s willingness to remove sin from our soul, and receiving His grace for our conversion.

 

[JRKH]

Just to add a bit, We should read and try to understand Scripture ourselves…there is much that is readily available and helpful on many levels. Catholic Theologens and Bible Scholars and the Magisterium all support Scripture. don’t be afraid…plunge right in…

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t think Jesus would have limited himself to telling us that it was either a literal prayer or an index of subjects to cover.

“Indexing” was a teaching technique in a society which relied heavily on apprenticeship to perpetuate skills and knowledge in which a short statement describes a greater subject as a means to commit it to memory. It’s a very effective teaching technique, all the more so in light of the fact that most people could not read.

Jesus says “this is how you are to pray” and not “This is what you are to say”. Having said that, the Words of the Lord’s Prayer are a sublime prayer in and of itself. The Pater Noster has been prayed effectively by untold generations.

-Tim-

 

[Barbkw]

Anyway, I was recently having a theological conversation with some protestant friends of mine, when the subject of the Lord’s Prayer came up. I questioned why, in their church, it was not a prayer the congregation said in their services. They obviously allocated time for prayer, but it was on an individual, private basis.

How often is the Last Supper celebration served at your friends’ denominations, what significance does the Communion service hold for them, and is the Our Father said then?

 

[PLeeD]

Their argument was that the Lord’s Prayer is just an example of how we are meant to pray. But when I read Matthew 6:9, it seems pretty conclusive to me.

I’m surprised they didn’t quote Matthew 6:9:

Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I think the idea for most of protestantism is that God wants a more direct relationship with us as individuals, and that prayer should reflect that. Prayer should be a more personal form of communication than a prescribed passage recited from memory.

I would echo JRKH in saying that using the Lord’s Prayer as an outline for the form, but then using your own thoughts and words, can be a very powerful way to pray. In that way you are also praying “like” Jesus instructs.

How often is the Last Supper celebration served at your friends’ denominations, what significance does the Communion service hold for them, and is the Our Father said then?

At our church, once or twice a month. Communion is typically delivered with a paraphrased recitation of scripture along the lines of 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. My pastor also emphasizes the passage immediately following, which talks about examining ourselves and partaking of communion in a worthy manner.

Lastly, I’ll mention that I consider Jesus to be truly present spiritually in the bread and wine. My pastor has used the words “real presence” before. So I wouldn’t call the process merely symbolic. I perceive it such that we are truly taking part in the body and blood of Christ.

 

[JRKH]

I’m surprised they didn’t quote Matthew 6:9:

Matthew 6:7 - But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I think the idea for most of protestantism is that God wants a more direct relationship with us as individuals, and that prayer should reflect that. Prayer should be a more personal form of communication than a prescribed passage recited from memory.

I would echo JRKH in saying that using the Lord’s Prayer as an outline for the form, but then using your own thoughts and words, can be a very powerful way to pray. In that way you are also praying “like” Jesus instructs.

I agree with this, but let us not dismiss memorized prayers or short ejaculations that help to keep God firmly in our mind.
They are sort of like songs of praise that we might sing or hum as we go about our daily chores.

Peace
James

 

[ThomasDoubter]

All very informative and helpful. Thanks for all of the replies!!!

Incidentally, for those of you who haven’t yet read it, in ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ by Pope Benedict XVI, there is a wonderful line-by-line breakdown and explanation of the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[ThomasDoubter]

I forgot to mention that I had the ‘vain repetition’ thing mentioned to me, PLeeD! It was one of the first things they mentioned in respect of praying the Rosary. But don’t get me started on that one! Praying to the Blessed Virgin, repetition prayers…I think they were foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of the Rosary!!!

They surely couldn’t use it as an argument against the Lord’s Prayer though. It was the Lord’s Prayer that was cited as the way to pray after mention of the ‘vain repetition’.

I will certainly be more open-minded in future with regards to paraphrasing. I can now see it as a positive template for prayer. I feel comfortable when there is form to my prayer, but have always been reluctant to personalise the Lord’s Prayer!

Just as a matter of interest (for Barbkw), the service in my friends church comprises a welcome message from the pastor, two or three songs, a period of personal prayer (some louder than others) followed by a sermon, and a sharing of bread and wine (well, wine substitute!). There doesn’t appear to be any formal rite regarding what I would call the Eucharist. I guess the church could best be described as Pentecostal.**