The loudest opponent of Italy's new anti-migrant policy? The Catholic Church

[J_the_Centrist]

I don’t think that it was the same thing and you know it’s not so please don’t meander. Today we are maligned, ridiculed and hated simply because we want to maintain our identity by a bunch of elites that care neither for us nor the immigrants coming here. We are told, in the U.S. and in European countries, that we have to adjust to other people’s cultures, other people’s values and that everything that we are must be swept aside. People are tired of it and accusations of racism, true or false, aren’t going to work anymore. When those immigrants came over a century ago they adjusted to the country’s values and became American, or Argentinian for that matter. Secular repressive ideology and all that it stands for is not helping us, nor is it helping the immigrants coming, most of whom have no interest or intention of adjusting their ways and they should because they came into our house and not the other way around. This can and will only end badly and I pray for all of us, every human being involved, because this is a recipe for disaster and in the end it will end in disaster. Your statement is like comparing apples to rocks and I mean that with all due respect. With everything in my heart I hope that I am wrong but I see no evidence of that, unfortunately. Leaves me genuinely sad, but I have no intention of uprooting my identity for someone else’s, that’s superficial compassion at its worst.

 

[graciew]

Leaves me genuinely sad, but I have no intention of uprooting my identity for someone else’s,

Neither have I.

 

[Annie]

Immigrants

Argentina was not a destination place for a long time, so they had few people. I was government policy during those years to encourage Europeans who wanted to emigrate to come to Argentina.

Many if not most of the immigrants were from Spain or Italy. Thus there were cultural similarities which probably helped ease the transition.

Additionally, and this was true in the US as well for many years, there was space and very inexpensive land, so immigrants could come, work hard, get land. and live. There was a lot of displacement from Europe because of the Industrial Revolution. A lot of agricultural workers were displaced. They came to the New World and were able to flourish because there was cheap land and lots of work for people.

In the beginning of the 1990s, over 90% of the US population lived in rural areas. Now only 4% do. The situation with immigration is totally different now than it was back then.

 

[graciew]

Just 5 million. The second country in amount of migrants at that time. 30% of our population were migrants.
God bless the land that received them…:hugs yes, I am a bit biased…a little favouritism ….but it is understandable,isn t it? It is my homeland…)

 

[Annie]

I would also like to add that I think the Church wants us to care for those in need. WRT refugees displaced by ISIS, we can care for 12 refugees in the Middle East for the cost of caring for 1 refugee in the US.

Does it not seem better to focus our efforts on caring for those in refugee camps, setting up some sort of system that is really functional for them? Instead, they are half-neglected, attacked by infiltrating criminals, bored out of their minds, and broke.

When we had waves of immigration to the US in the past, the immigrants were culturally similar to us, had job backgrounds that allowed them to fit into the economy, and a desire to assimilate. They were grateful to have a place to come to.

Those leaving the ME may or may not have the knowledge necessary to fit in here. One tiny example: a restaurant I know hires people from the ME; they now have to include in their training that the employees must shower and use deodorant before coming work.

From 1850 to 1950, if someone came here who couldn’t read even in his native language, he could still find work and manage. Now that is not the case.

I do abhor reading about people being cruel to migrants. We as individuals should always be polite and respectful to everyone around us.

But at the same time, our government should not have policies which overburden us.

Each nation should have immigration policies which allow people in but not negatively affect people already here. They should also police their borders and discourage illegal immigration, which causes many problems.

And maybe those in the Church should consider what they can do to help change the situation in the home countries of those who suffer so much there that they have to leave.

 

[Ender]

I would also like to add that I think the Church wants us to care for those in need.

Yes, the church wants us to care for those in need. That is a doctrine.

(I know I’m repeating myself here, but it is important…so I’ll say it again.)

As to how best to extend that care she (the church) is utterly silent. The proposals coming from the church hierarchy are solely the prudential judgments of the individuals who make them; they are not doctrinal utterances, and we may legitimately judge them as deficient if we have seriously considered the issue. It is not “the church” who proposes solutions, it is those in the church who make them, which makes those statements debatable judgments, and not doctrines to which we are bound to assent.

 

[Annie]

It seems the fact that Argentina is mostly Catholic and still respectful of the Church means that the Church can accomplish a lot and weild great influence. Additionally, many of those who are currently coming to your country have a fairly similar background in terms of at least familiarity with Catholicism, similar language, etc.

This is far different from the situation in the US, and in Western Europe (and these differ from each other as well).

 

[J_the_Centrist]

Bingo! Give that fine person a prize.

 

[Theo520]

All I can say,is that we have been dealt with with a strong hand as a people,and that our Bishops have held us dearly but to task. And that means holding us and our authorities to dialogue and solving our problems,even when that meant oil and vinegar sit down and address the most difficult issues. Not run away,but trust,entrust ourselves and face our issues. As a people .
And this is the struggle I read and hear Latin American Bishops holding their flock to.
And the Bishop I remember ,now our Pope, was a man well aware of what surrounded him.
Let us pray that he receives the strength he needs in such difficult times.

I appreciate I could hear your perspective today,Abucs. Thank you for that and for your time. We are always learning something.

I think Subsidiarity is key, and maybe our Bishops are not practicing the principle.

What are the Lat Amer Bishops requesting?
Do they want us to adopt their flock, or what other aid are they requesting?
What are they doing to address the corruptions and violence issues?

Subsidiarity dictates they are primarily responsible, and they do have vast influence given the super majority of their citizens are Catholic.

Baring specific calls for help from their Southern compadres, the US Bishops should practice subsidiarity and focus on the needs of their US responsibilities.

 

[graciew]

It seems,Annie…but it may not be.
It would entail a more local analysis to go through the topic and it may not come to the point . And quite frankly ,my opinion only.

 

[graciew]

Theo,first,there is no way I will go or say a word against the USSCB . I lack the stature,and by far.
Cardinal Di Nardo…what a blessing! Used to be my Bishop there…
Second, whoever is familiar with Bishops around here knows and by heart,that they have a lot on their plates already and they address what concerns them. Corruption and violence included.
And third this you wrote: " What are the Lat Amer Bishops requesting?
Do they want us to adopt their flock, or what other aid are they requesting?". is almost kafkian to my ears… Are you serious?
So many local issues to address x Diocese… and in Spanish!. It would take more time than I have and want to spend!
Against corruption, not only Bishops but Episcopal Conferences addressing it…
And last but not least, these guys( excuse me,Bishops…) can walk and chew gum at the same time. The persons in their territories are their concern…from the oldest neighbour to the newly arrived. As they are,as we are…
Edited: I was looking for articles in Spanish which you may translate, but you may not understand what they are directly related to ,even then I may post them if you are interested…( then,the telephone rang.)

Think of this. At a specific parish level,and specific parish/es,we may not foster soup kitchen for example. Why? Because there are families together at dinner and we can better foster a time families eat together at home. So the help with food is differently addressed.
At others,with lonely elderly,it may be better for them " Midday for Grandparents",even to get together and socialize a bit.
See the level of care ? It helps understand,I think.

 

[Annie]

True, I couldn’t say for sure. Just based on what I have read.

 

[Theo520]

" What are the Lat Amer Bishops requesting?
Do they want us to adopt their flock, or what other aid are they requesting? ". is almost kafkian to my ears… Are you serious?
So many local issues to address x Diocese… and in Spanish!. It would take more time than I have and want to spend!

You evaded my questions

Against corruption, not only Bishops but Episcopal Conferences addressing it…
And last but not least, these guys( excuse me,Bishops…) can walk and chew gum at the same time. The persons in their territories are their concern…from the oldest neighbour to the newly arrived. As they are,as we are…

Do you accept their responsibility ends at pronouncements?
Perhaps that is why the problem is so pervasive, and in countries where the super majority of citizens are members of their flock.

I think we should expect more of them.

Think of this. At a specific parish level,and specific parish/es,we may not foster soup kitchen for example. Why? Because there are families together at dinner and we can better foster a time families eat together at home. So the help with food is differently addressed.
At others,with lonely elderly,it may be better for them " Midday for Grandparents",even to get together and socialize a bit.
See the level of care ? It helps understand,I think.

No I have no idea what you were trying to say.

 

[graciew]

You evaded my question

No…I was blunt honest.
How can one know what each Bishop in Latin América diocesis es are asking for? Why do I need to know?
We have ours…enough…
And trying to " relocate "their flock or sending their flock elsewhere is…Martian! No offense,Theo,but one doesn’t know where a thought like this may come from…
The aid they ask depends on their difficulties.It is just like your Bishops…
Sometimes one reads that Bishops in Venezuela speak for their people,then in Guatemala and so on…and the events taking place there…It comes in the news or Catholic news…

Now if what you are asking for is Latin American Bishops as a whole,the closest one can guide you to is V Conferencia General del Episcopado Latinoamericano y del Caribe
Find the Document at Aparecida here,but I ve never seen it in English though. You may translate if interested.

Documento de Aparecida – V Conferencia General del CELAM 2007

Homilías, discursos, mensajes del papa Francisco, obispos y otras entidades eclesiales

www.vidanuevadigital.com

We are having our own “Lava Jato” with the copy books of political corruption right now pretty busy…pretty shocked…
We all have our own local issues.

 

[graciew]

o you accept their responsibility ends at pronouncements?
Perhaps that is why the problem is so pervasive, and in countries where the super majority of citizens are members of their flock.

I think we should expect more of them.

I do not understand this part,Theo…but personally ,I do not expect more from our Bishops. I cannot even figure out how they can manage with all there is on their plates… Plus the amount of " tomatoes " they get,sometimes just for upholding what our faith is about,what our teachings are,what God expects from us,what we are to look for as a community
I do not know how some of them do…and they do not give up. And for free.

Have a look at this one. The last one I remember. Venezuelan Bishops. There,in Venezuela,running the same fate as their flock,same lack of food and medicine and so on.

July 11, 2018 6:45 pm
Bishops of Venezuela reiterate that the government is responsible for the serious crisis
ACI Prensa

https://translate.googleusercontent...700208&usg=ALkJrhjj4W1lLgDMNnIS0HdI3Ve7pKwhxQ

 

[F_Marturana]

Lots of times we weren’t received with open arms.

Lots of anti Catholic discrimination in the US.