The Love Of The Father: John 3:16

[benedictus2]

Thanks; I will be interested to read it - can you tell me what is meant by “mystic” or “mystical?” Or, how are you intending it to be seen?

Mysticism is this desire of the human soul for the intimate union with God. The Carmelite’s ethos is union with God.

Are these Carmelites, actually barefoot, as in “Discalced;” or does this word refer to something else?

Yes initially that is what it was. It was to show their commitment to poverty. The title has been retained but they now wear sandals or even shoes.

I noticed that in the first chapter of this book at the link you gave; it talks about not being honest with “your confessor;” and I presume that this refers more to the situation where the church member is confessing to their Catholic Priest, but there is a lesson here which goes beyond that to our relationship with God, and what kind we have. Are we honest with Him? Do we come to Him just as we are? or do we make ourselves a certain way first to try and impress Him?

That is correct, it refers to honesty when confessing to a Catholic Priest. But confessor here is not just any priest. The confessor is also a spiritual director. One of their duties is to help guide the penitent soul to the right path and a person who is not open about all his/her sins will not be guided properly.

An example would be someone who confesses to say having watched a pornographic movie. The confessor needs to know if this is a one off occurence or something that is already an addiction so that he can guide and counsel him/her accordingly.

I do know from personal experience that in this “Night Of Faith;” God has a thousand ways to get us out of the artificial mode with Him. We tend to be more real with God then; and He can then be more real with/to us.

Yes. I totally agree with that. We need to be brutally honest with ourself and not make excuses.

I think a good example here would be forgiveness. Sometimes we say we have forgiven someone when in our heart we really have not. We have to be honest that we still hate and hold a grudge against a person and acknowledge that before Him so that His healing can come and true forgiveness can come into our hearts.

I think in any conversion and growth in faith, what gets uncoverred is our sins. Without true acknowledgement of our sins there will not be growth. And we know we have not fully acknowledged our culpability when we find excuses for our sin. If our first response to having sinnned is trying to think up an excuse then we know that we have not truly owned up to our failing.

True repentance comes when we stop finding excuses and just accept that we have commited a terrible thing and know that God loves us inspite of this.

I think if there is anything that Adam and Eve’s sin has passed on to us it is this refusal to accept responsiblity.

I was meditating on “the fall” one day and I thought what would have happened if instead of saying “she made me do it” and “the serpent made me do it”, Adam and Eve instead said “I am sorry, I wanted to be like you that’s why I ate.”

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus I received an email from a friend who has just read Teresa of Avila’s Interior Castle and he says it has transformed him and his family. Highly recommended.

I think you might be familiar with the book. What is your impression?

Cheers
Jeanne

Yes it is indeed a most beutiful book. Protestant 101, I think you will like it too as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila are very much on the same wavelength.

It likens the soul to a castle with many rooms. At the centre of the castle is God. The goal of the soul is to reach the centre to be united with God. But to get to the centre one must pass through these rooms and endure trial and purgation.

St Johns Dark Night of the Soul is in a similar way a purgative phase when one is strripped of irordinate love of self.

In both John and Theresa union is attained when one has been purged free of attachments.

I think I mentioned in my earlier post to P101 that this is what mysticism is all about: this union with God.

BTW my signature is one of St Teresa’s poem and you can see from the last line her complete surrender to God. “God alone is enough”.

You would not think that such beautiful poem and prose came from a soul that suffered through years of aridity in prayer.

The wealth of information that is available on the internet is truly amazing.

Those interested in reading the Interior Castle can go to this site

http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/castle/interiorcastle.cfm

 

[Protestant101]

Yes. I totally agree with that. We need to be brutally honest with ourself and not make excuses.

I think a good example here would be forgiveness. Sometimes we say we have forgiven someone when in our heart we really have not. We have to be honest that we still hate and hold a grudge against a person and acknowledge that before Him so that His healing can come and true forgiveness can come into our hearts.

I think in any conversion and growth in faith, what gets uncoverred is our sins. Without true acknowledgement of our sins there will not be growth. And we know we have not fully acknowledged our culpability when we find excuses for our sin. If our first response to having sinnned is trying to think up an excuse then we know that we have not truly owned up to our failing.

True repentance comes when we stop finding excuses and just accept that we have commited a terrible thing and know that God loves us inspite of this.

I think if there is anything that Adam and Eve’s sin has passed on to us it is this refusal to accept responsiblity.

There is much food for thought in your comments here. I appreciate them very much. Just letting you know I intend to come back here over the week end to comment more. I havn’t forgotten about this thread!

“God so loved the world” becomes very interesting and in-depth when we consider it in light of your comments about being honest with Him.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

“For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.” 1 Peter 2:21

For this reason, John 3:16 should always be read in conjunction with is natural corollarys, particularly, 1 John 3:16:

“The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.”

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Protestant101;

Joh

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

Can God possibly love each and every one of as he loves his son Jesus?

Can God possibly love each one of us as he loves himself?

Does the love that God have for us hang on the greatest commandments?

In the spirit of growing together through the love of Christ

Eric

 

[Cinette]

Greetings and peace be with you Protestant101;

Can God possibly love each and every one of as he loves his son Jesus?

Can God possibly love each one of us as he loves himself?

Does the love that God have for us hang on the greatest commandments?

In the spirit of growing together through the love of Christ

Eric

You should go to post #65 and see some of the quotations re God’s love.

I believe it is essential that we come to the realisation of God’s great love for us. It took me a while to get it into my head. I see how fundamental it is. God has a very special plan for us and wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of coming as a man to die on the cross to save us. I wish everybody could be conscious of this.

 

[Protestant101]

Yes it is indeed a most beutiful book. Protestant 101, I think you will like it too as St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila are very much on the same wavelength.

I have been reading this material; and have written a short poem as an initial response to it all:

“What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?” Job 6:11

A Dark Night

Softly, the candle releases it’s glow
The black of night seems always ready
When it goes out, then you know
You should have held the candle steady.

So often, hope is like this too
The hardened soul seems always ready
When happiness shows, that’s a clue
That hardness wasn’t held so steady

Hope stays put as time ticks by
But not unless hardness comes to you
The day may come when hope will die
You painfully wonder if it was true

Softly, I hide the memories away
They always seem to be painfully ready
I’m sadly reminded after such a day:
Hope was held; but not so steady

- by Protestant 101

*permission to share; only as is, and for non-profit.

 

[Cinette]

TO ALL ON THIS THREAD!

May Holy Week bring you closer to the Lord than you have ever been. May you feel his great love and share with all you meet.

Peace
Cinette

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you Cinette;

I believe it is essential that we come to the realisation of God’s great love for us.

Amen.

But what kind of a burden are we to God, if he loves us as he loves himself?

Every time we sin, does God forgive us, in order that he continues to love us as he loves himself?

In the spirit of searching for God’s great love

Eric

 

[Cinette]

Greetings and peace be with you Cinette;

Amen.

But what kind of a burden are we to God, if he loves us as he loves himself?

Every time we sin, does God forgive us, in order that he continues to love us as he loves himself?

In the spirit of searching for God’s great love

Eric

God forgives a contrite heart. His love for us in immesurable. Everything he does is based on love.

I cannot conceive of the idea of God loving himself.

When I think of us loving ourselves I think of it in terms of looking after our wellbeing and wanting to protect ourselves. We are told to love others. Many of the people we love we do not like and again, to love others is to share with them, to ensure they do not suffer, to reach out to them…

You did not finish your last sentence…

There are people on this thread who might think that I do not love them but they are wrong and the love I feel is one that, although I am not in agreement with them, I recognise the depth of their heart and their sincerity and I know they are good…

 

[wina]

TO ALL ON THIS THREAD!

May Holy Week bring you closer to the Lord than you have ever been. May you feel his great love and share with all you meet.

AMEN

 

[benedictus2]

I have been reading this material; and have written a short poem as an initial response to it all:

“What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?” Job 6:11

A Dark Night

Softly, the candle releases it’s glow
The black of night seems always ready
When it goes out, then you know
You should have held the candle steady.

So often, hope is like this too
The hardened soul seems always ready
When happiness shows, that’s a clue
That hardness wasn’t held so steady

Hope stays put as time ticks by
But not unless hardness comes to you
The day may come when hope will die
You painfully wonder if it was true

Softly, I hide the memories away
They always seem to be painfully ready
I’m sadly reminded after such a day:
Hope was held; but not so steady

- by Protestant 101

*permission to share; only as is, and for non-profit.

Wow! That is quite moving.

I pray that your Hope will be held steady.

We grow steadier in hope with every rattling so long as in the darkness, we resolutely cling to God. And here what is needed is an act of will. To chose to hope when it appears hopeless.

 

[benedictus2]

But what kind of a burden are we to God, if he loves us as he loves himself?

We are not a burden to God. We cannot burden God. He however to the burden of our sins because of His grate love for us, becuase without Him taking this burden of sin upon Himself we will be crushed to death.

Every time we sin, does God forgive us, in order that he continues to love us as he loves himself?

There is an error here. God’s loving us is not a pre-condition to loving Himself.

In the spirit of searching for God’s great love

The way to find it is to ask that your eyes may be opened to it. There is no need to search for the brightness of the sun. We just need to take off the sunglasses. Or more precisely, ask God to gently lift them off our faces.

 

[Autumn_of_Life]

I have always wondered why this passage is not taken literally by Catholics. (John 3:16) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life.” It says we have everlasting life by believing in Jesus; plain as it can be. Is that not just as distinctly clear as, “this is my Body”? Why do Catholics take one verse so literally and not John 3:16? As a Protestant in RCIA, on the road to conversion, this has been the greatest hurdle for me and is causing me to drag my feet in RCIA classes.

 

[benedictus2]

I have always wondered why this passage is not taken literally by Catholics. (John 3:16) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life.” It says we have everlasting life by believing in Jesus; plain as it can be. Is that not just as distinctly clear as, “this is my Body”? Why do Catholics take one verse so literally and not John 3:16? As a Protestant in RCIA, on the road to conversion, this has been the greatest hurdle for me and is causing me to drag my feet in RCIA classes.

The Catholics do take this passage seriously. But unlike Protestants, the Catholics actually understand salvation in terms of the whole revelation in Scripture not just on half a verse.

Elsewhere in Matthew 25, Jesus is very clear that salvation involves works of mercy. And in another He says not those who call HIm Lord, Lord but those who do the will of His Father who will enter the kingdom.

So now, how do you square numerous other passages that say that believing is not enough?

The Bible has to be read as a whole not chopped up into bits and pieces. Unfortunately, Protestants read into the passages what they want it to say.

Peter in one of his letters also say “baptism now saves you”. Now some evangelicals do not even believe in baptism.

Another clarification is what does it mean to believe in Jesus? I mean, if you want to be literal about it even Satan believes in Jesus. So obviously ,believing must mean more than just acknowledging Jesus. It must be more than just an intellectual assent in the existence of Jesus.

Furthermore, what is it about Jesus that we believe. A lot of protestants believe in Jesus but they believe He is only human, not God.

So to go back to your question why we do not take this literally, because you simply cannot in light of the above.

 

[Cinette]

I have always wondered why this passage is not taken literally by Catholics. (John 3:16) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting Life.” It says we have everlasting life by believing in Jesus; plain as it can be. Is that not just as distinctly clear as, “this is my Body”? Why do Catholics take one verse so literally and not John 3:16? As a Protestant in RCIA, on the road to conversion, this has been the greatest hurdle for me and is causing me to drag my feet in RCIA classes.

What an extraordinary statement to make!

Can you please explain this? I have posted dozens of scripture passages that speak of God’s extraordinary love for us. We need to acknowledge this as a core belief - fundamental and basic.

Without God’s extraordinary love there would be no Incarnation, Death and Resurrection - there would be no Christianity!!!

Please answer these questions:

What are you doing in RCIA?
Whatever attracted you to Catholicism?

Without God’s love there is no Catholicism!

Is this posting a joke? Just to try to bring a little excitement by provoking a reaction?

 

[Autumn_of_Life]

Oh, Cinette and benedictus2, please know my question was completely serious, and full of respect for the Catholic Church. To answer your questions, I am in RCIA because the Holy Spirit has lead me here and I am not fighting it…I simply have questions. benedictus2, your answers are keeping me on track – which is all I am seeking. It is not easy letting go of 5 decades of Protestant teaching. The love of God which is expressed in John 3:16 is extraordinary, as you have so beautifully pointed out, Cinette. My questions are in no way intended to be anything but Truth-seeking. Thank you for your responses.

 

[Cinette]

Oh, Cinette and benedictus2, please know my question was completely serious, and full of respect for the Catholic Church. To answer your questions, I am in RCIA because the Holy Spirit has lead me here and I am not fighting it…I simply have questions. benedictus2, your answers are keeping me on track – which is all I am seeking. It is not easy letting go of 5 decades of Protestant teaching. The love of God which is expressed in John 3:16 is extraordinary, as you have so beautifully pointed out, Cinette. My questions are in no way intended to be anything but Truth-seeking. Thank you for your responses.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I apologise if I did but…

Please explain what you meant. Obviously Benedictus and I understood your post differently.

I am interested in understanding what you meant. I am confused.

Cinette

 

[Autumn_of_Life]

Cinette, Yes, I will explain. Protestants believe that John 3:16 is making the point that God so perfectly loved us that he sent his Son to die for our sins and all He is asking is that we believe it. That is what a Protestant hears when this scripture is read. A Protestant believes that God’s Love is what makes Christ’s death on the Cross, and His Resurrection, the complete atonement for Salvation. Works, therefore, are the believer’s way of expressing that belief. So, works ARE very important, and necessary, but Protestants believe that John 3:16 says that everlasting life, salvation, was made possible by Christ’s sacrifice. That deep, deep understanding is as engrained in a Protestant’s heart as it is when a Catholic speaks of the annunciation. Can you imagine how difficult it would be for most Catholics to change their “opinion” about Mary? So, my question comparing the literal-ness (is that a word?) of both passages is as serious a question as this RCIA student hopes it gets. I am still in RCIA, trying to come to grips with the annulments I am facing, in addition to the salvation questions, and just a little pouty because the Easter vigil passed with me sitting on the pew, unable to take Communion. Converting is not simple for this old Protestant. Thanks, again, for your sincere concern.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, Yes, I will explain. Protestants believe that John 3:16 is making the point that God so perfectly loved us that he sent his Son to die for our sins and all He is asking is that we believe it.

We believe it also but to separate works from Faith is like separating the singer from the song, the dancer from the dance. If your husband says he loves you and doesn’t support you, visit you in hospital, want to be with you, show his love by his actions, then you are going to have serious doubts aren’t you?

That is what a Protestant hears when this scripture is read. A Protestant believes that God’s Love is what makes Christ’s death on the Cross, and His Resurrection, the complete atonement for Salvation.

By dying on the cross Jesus provided the means for our entry into heaven and the achievement of Eternal Life. It is for us to respond to his love by obeying his commandments. “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” **Good works flow from a vibrant inner faith. **Catholics do not just believe that by simply acknowledging Jesus as our Lord and Saviour we are saved. Have you never heard of the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy? If not let me know and I will list them for you.

Works, therefore, are the believer’s way of expressing that belief. So, works ARE very important, and necessary, but Protestants believe that John 3:16 says that everlasting life, salvation, was made possible by Christ’s sacrifice. No doubt about that. It was made possible and we must respond.

That deep, deep understanding is as engrained in a Protestant’s heart as it is when a Catholic speaks of the annunciation. Can you imagine how difficult it would be for most Catholics to change their “opinion” about Mary? It would be impossible for a thoroughly Catechised Catholic to do so.

So, my question comparing the literal-ness (is that a word?) of both passages is as serious a question as this RCIA student hopes it gets. I am still in RCIA, trying to come to grips with the annulments I am facing, in addition to the salvation questions, and just a little pouty because the Easter vigil passed with me sitting on the pew, I admire you for that because it shows your sincerity and seriousness. It would be wrong for you not to wait and to continue your search for truth.unable to take Communion. Converting is not simple for this old Protestant. Converting is serious business. Thanks, again, for your sincere concern.

Benedictus understood your comments better than I did. I never saw that when you said that Catholics did not have a literal understanding of John 3:16 you were talking about salvation. To me it is not a literal understanding. Works flow from it naturally. I find it difficult to understand many Protestants who think that all you have to do is believe and no matter what you do you cannot lose your salvation. The devil believes in Jesus…