The Love Of The Father: John 3:16

[Autumn_of_Life]

Cinette, Thank you, again. Responses such as yours are exactly why I am spending time at this site – to obtain answers based on Truth.

One thing I noticed when I began asking questions about the Catholic faith is that almost none of the Catholics I engaged acted on my obvious interest. Only one, who is now my sponsor, even invited me to church. I mention that because there was so little willingness to evangelize, which I wondered might have been because the Catholics I encountered seemed so misinformed about Protestant beliefs. Which brings me to your comment, "I find it difficult to understand many Protestants who think that all you have to do is believe and no matter what you do you cannot lose your salvation. The devil believes in Jesus… " which, by the way, is a very convincing reply.

To help you, and others, understand how to “reach” Protestants, perhaps it would open a door of compassion to know that Protestants DO believe you can lose Salvation – by turning from God. **At this point, Cinette, is where the light of evangilizing opportunity shines. ** What constitutes “turning from God”? This is not a question you need to answer for me here, because I realize it is probably a starting point for another, very importnat thread. I hope it stirs more Catholics, *including me!, *to get to the depths of what is buried deep, deep, deep inside the Protestant heart, so that with compassionate, informed evangelizing, we can teach Protestants the meaning of John 3:16.

Thanks, Cinette, for the opportunity to grow in His Love.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, Thank you, again. Responses such as yours are exactly why I am spending time at this site – to obtain answers based on Truth.

One thing I noticed when I began asking questions about the Catholic faith is that almost none of the Catholics I engaged acted on my obvious interest. Only one, who is now my sponsor, even invited me to church. I mention that because there was so little willingness to evangelize, which I wondered might have been because the Catholics I encountered seemed so misinformed about Protestant beliefs. Which brings me to your comment, "I find it difficult to understand many Protestants who think that all you have to do is believe and no matter what you do you cannot lose your salvation. The devil believes in Jesus… " which, by the way, is a very convincing reply.

To help you, and others, understand how to “reach” Protestants, perhaps it would open a door of compassion to know that Protestants DO believe you can lose Salvation – by turning from God. **At this point, Cinette, is where the light of evangilizing opportunity shines. ** What constitutes “turning from God”? This is not a question you need to answer for me here, because I realize it is probably a starting point for another, very importnat thread. I hope it stirs more Catholics, *including me!, *to get to the depths of what is buried deep, deep, deep inside the Protestant heart, so that with compassionate, informed evangelizing, we can teach Protestants the meaning of John 3:16.

Thanks, Cinette, for the opportunity to grow in His Love.

Autumn of Life -

Unfortunately it is true that there are a lot of Catholics who do not know much about their Faith. I was not sufficiently evangelized as a young person and left the Church for 27 years. Some of the best Catholics are ex-Protestants. I have come to know more about my faith now and find it extremely beautiful and interesting. Protestants keep us on our toes.

Your suggestion for another thread is indeed a very good idea.

I am pleased to learn that there are Protestants who do believe you can lose salvation. But then there are so many denominations, so many different beliefs.

I hope you will continue to learn more about the Faith on CAF. I have found it extremely helpful myself.

Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi, P101,

This is truly a beautiful thread you have opened. God bless you for your effort here.

The Love Of The Father: John 3:16
This really is GOOD NEWS!! I have often meditated upon this scripture, and one of the Catholic posters here at CAF mentioned that they were starting to study this wonderful text too. It seemed like a logical thing to us to also start a topic, discussing our respective views on this text. I would like to invite comments and thoughts and testimonies from anyone interested in studying the subjects of this verse.

The first thought that has come to me about this verse is the phrase: “For God so loved…” What is suggested by this phrase alone, could actually be the entire Gospel, were it correctly understood and lived out in the lives of believers.

What does this mean to you? What has been your experience?

To me, this verse, this phrase, is all about the love of The Father; and of His Son to erring mankind. It describes, and models a special type of love that never ceases to amaze me!

What are your thoughts? Is this really GOOD NEWS to you? Why?

Personally, no matter what topic one chooses to meditate on, most folks usually come to John 3:16 in some form or another - and all are bowed in wonderment and awe at the Love of God for His creatures. While there can be no full understanding - we certainly can use the talents and abilities of our mind and body to learn what we can of this tremendous mystery and to be truly thankful for God’s Love to all of us.

Have a blessed Easter season.

 

[Protestant101]

Cinette, Thank you, again. Responses such as yours are exactly why I am spending time at this site – to obtain answers based on Truth.

One thing I noticed when I began asking questions about the Catholic faith is that almost none of the Catholics I engaged acted on my obvious interest. Only one, who is now my sponsor, even invited me to church. I mention that because there was so little willingness to evangelize, which I wondered might have been because the Catholics I encountered seemed so misinformed about Protestant beliefs. Which brings me to your comment, "I find it difficult to understand many Protestants who think that all you have to do is believe and no matter what you do you cannot lose your salvation. The devil believes in Jesus… " which, by the way, is a very convincing reply.

Hello Autumn of Life

I want to thank you for joining us in this thread; I hope it’s alright for a “Protestant” to reply to your posts here as well?

What you described re not too many being willing to 'evangelize" is a common problem - in both Catholic and Protestant Churches. I think that we can all relate to that in some way or another.

But the thing that really encourages me is that there is something in John 3:16 FOR EVERYONE! yes, some Protestants see salvation as limited to “belief;” yet there are some Catholics who see it as being brought about more by “works.” It becomes a curious hodge-podge amongst all faith backgrounds.

But, God still says through all the theological haze: “For God so loved the world…” [world means everyone, both Catholic and Protestant] that He GAVE His only begotten Son…"

I think you should be very diligent and not let that sponsor get too far from you! And then try to copy that sponor’s attitude with others! It would be a good witness for John 3:16!!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, P101,

You had gotten off to a great start…and, were doing so well… do you think you can return to the thread that you began?

Now, let’s take a look at what you have here:

Yes, I remember reading this passage and after seeing that the idea was not new or unique to just one writer, I did some further research, as evidenced in my posts. To me, even without that quote, the question is settled. John is equal to Peter in terms of “status” with Jesus. Peter has absolutely nothing superior in position to any other disciple.

There can be no doubt about the special Love that Christ had for John. Anytime we try to make inferences from things not specifically backed up by either Scripture or Apostolic Tradition we run the risk of drawing the wrong conclusion. As Benedictus2 so aptly pointed out, Christ gave His Mother to the care of John as her son and John was given to Mary to be cared for as his mother. It was John who took our place at the Cross. Mary continues as Our Mother.

And, then we get to this item of yours on ‘status’. James and John, as I recall, were not above this quest for status - and the other Ten Apostles were not above being annoyed by such direct ambition - they would have been more descreet! but the Zebedee Boys beat them to the punch! To no avail, for Christ had Other Plans. None of the Twelve really understood what Christ had in Mind for them - but the recongnition of earthly ‘status’ was not it.

Matthew 20:20-24
20Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee approached him with her sons and did him homage, wishing to ask him for something. 21 He said to her, “What do you wish?” She answered him, “Command that these two sons of mine sit, one at your right and the other at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in reply, “You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I am going to drink?” They said to him, “We can.” 23 He replied, “My cup you will indeed drink, but to sit at my right and at my left (, this) is not mine to give but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” 24 When the ten heard this, they became indignant at the two brothers.

Mark 10:35-41
35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36 He replied, “What do you wish (me) to do for you?” 37 They answered him, “Grant that in your glory we may sit one at your right and the other at your left.” 38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Can you drink the cup that I drink or be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 They said to him, “We can.” Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink, you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 40 but to sit at my right or at my left is not mine to give but is for those for whom it has been prepared.” 41 When the ten heard this, they became indignant at James and John.

You know… I was not able to find an account of this even in John’s Gospel…

Christ loved all of the Apostles - out of the entire world population at the time - He chose these Twelve over all others. Strictly from a numerical stand - this is an impressive demonstration of selection.

But, just like a parent with a large number of children - all are loved, and the strengths and weaknesses are known and appreciated by the parent. For the parent to select one to “X” and another to do “Y” is not to say that one is ‘loved more’ as if we were trying to quantify a spiritual reality, like so many ounces or pounds of a commodity. Love is not like that.

True, Peter was just an older fisherman … but, then…
1.) his brother, Andrew, got him to see the Lord. Christ immediately changed Peter’s name - and, notice: none of the Eleven had their names changed (John 1:42).

2.) Christ told Peter where to fish - to get the money to pay the tax (Matt 17:25) - and it was just enough for Christ and Peter (not the other Eleven).

3.) When Christ was in the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked the Apostles a question - and Eleven got it wrong! Peter got it right because he was inspired by God (Matt 16:16-20).

4.) Peter was specially selected for a different role in the group of Apostles - not from merit (or, charm, wit, intelligence, discretion or valor for that matter!) but, from the Will of God.

5.) Peter was the one Christ chose to strenthen his brothers (Luke 22:32) and, it was Peter that the Risen Christ told to feed His Lambs and Sheep (John 21:15-22) - and then gently rebuked Peter for wondering about John’s future (There is a certain consistency to the pre-Pentecost Peter…)

No doubt of it, even if you think you have exhausted your search, Peter was in charge because Christ put him in that role… and, that is simply the Will of God in action.

Let me urge you to return to your original post on, “God so loved the world…”

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, P101,

Christ loved all of the Apostles - out of the entire world population at the time - He chose these Twelve over all others. Strictly from a numerical stand - this is an impressive demonstration of selection.

No doubt of it, even if you think you have exhausted your search, Peter was in charge because Christ put him in that role… and, that is simply the Will of God in action.

Let me urge you to return to your original post on, “God so loved the world…”

God bless

The comment I made re John’s relationship with Jesus is not the OP; it was made parenthetically, not meaning to get into this kind of discussion with you or anyone else. The intention was to point out that John had a very special relationship with The Savior, that none of the other disciples had, and that this relationship was evident by the text of John 3:16. This is good news because it shows how God can use anyone equally, in His cause. That is in keeping with the original post…

 

[Protestant101]

And here what is needed is an act of will. To chose to hope when it appears hopeless.

I have though often about this comment - it is so true; and if there is anyone who has had the experience of doing this, it would be nice to hear from you in this topic. I see God as doing this when He “gave His Son” to “the world.” (Jo.3:16)

 

[Cinette]

The Gospel reading at Mass this morning was John 21:1-14.

Fr Harry usually gives a short commentary on the day’s readings before Mass and this morning he said that John recognised Jesus immediately and Peter, good old precipitant “Simon Peter, who had practically nothing on, wrapped his cloak round him and jumped into the water. …” Father commented that “John has often been called the first mystic - like Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Francis of Assisi, St Dominic…” and he said that as we come to a closer relationship with the Lord we too can be mystics…even P101!!.

I was thinking that you P101 must be very dear to the Lord because you provide Him and the Angels and Saints with a lot of entertainment!

God bless you all
Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

Cinette, Yes, I will explain. Protestants believe that John 3:16 is making the point that God so perfectly loved us that he sent his Son to die for our sins and all He is asking is that we believe it. That is what a Protestant hears when this scripture is read. A Protestant believes that God’s Love is what makes Christ’s death on the Cross, and His Resurrection, the complete atonement for Salvation. Works, therefore, are the believer’s way of expressing that belief. So, works ARE very important, and necessary, but Protestants believe that John 3:16 says that everlasting life, salvation, was made possible by Christ’s sacrifice. .

Hi Autumn,

I will post here a reply I made to Craig Kennedy in another thread because I think your questions are similar. I will post his question as well.
This is a rather lazy way of replying to you I know, so apologies for that.
Craig Kennedy:

Hi Tom,

In your post you make this statement:

*“Christ has paid the full price for the salvation of all mankind. None of us get to heaven by our efforts- but, by cooperating with the Grace of God and DOING what Christ said to DO. And that means you have to WORK for this eternal treasure…” *

*Herein, lies the MASSIVE CONTRADICTION of your position. On the one hand you assert - correctly - that no one gets to heaven by their own efforts; on the other hand, you assert that a person has to WORK for the eternal treasure of salvation and eternal life. *

Hi Craig,

The seeming contradiction only exists when we fail to understand the interplay between grace and faith.

I think I have said this before but all that salvation by grace means is that it is free. We did not merit it. It is purely as John wrote : because God so loved the world.

But the question is how does God effect salvation? Okay so it is free, so Christ died on the cross once to save us. But have you ever asked yourself how his dying brought on salvation?

The protestant understanding of salvation is like this:
God imputes on us Christ’s righteousness so even though deep inside we are still the same miserable, wretched creatures that we are, His righteousness covers all that muck within so when God sees us, He sees that outer covering that is Christ. In short we are a garbage pit that’s been covered with white turf so it looks pleasing to the eye.

If all that is needed is for us to be imputed with Christ’s righteousness why go to the extent of being human? Furthermore, why the need to suffer and die on the cross?

The Catholic understanding is this: The suffering death and resurrection of Christ opened up heaven so to speak so that the graces are made available to us. Justificatiion is not a mere DECLARATION by God that we are righteous but rather that we are actually MADE rigteous.

I think I said in a reply in “To live by faith” that in saving us from the pit Christ requires us to put our hand in His. He could have very well yanked us out but no, He wants us to grab His hand.

This action of grace on our soul makes us righteous.

But what does it mean to actually be righteous?

It means following God’s commandments which in a nutshell boils down to love of God and love of neighbour. LOVE is WORK.

We do not truly love unless we prove it by our deeds. You can tell your wife till you are blue in the face that you love her but that will mean zilch if you do not bring her a rose every now and again, help her with the chores, look after the children, provide for her, take the time to listen to her, etc., etc.

That is why in one of Paul’s most moving letters he says the greatest is LOVE because to love is to participate in Divine life.

When we get to heaven, faith and hope will cease, but love will still be there and love manifestests itself in WORK so long as we are on this side eternity. That is why we have the phrase “labour of love”.

James is so right when he says “I will show you my faith by my works”.

Christ said follow me. The following of Christ involves a dying to self. A carrying of our crosses. All these involve WORK.

Another reason for the seeming contradiction in your mind is I believe due to a lack of a fully developed understanding of every aspect of salvation.

 

[Cinette]

Dear Benedictus - you have put it so beautifully.

I am sure even a “certain” person is bound to see it now.

Thank you so much
Blessings
Cinette

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2

I agree - you hit the nail very squarely on the head!

The Catholic understanding is this: The suffering death and resurrection of Christ opened up heaven so to speak so that the graces are made available to us. Justificatiion is not a mere DECLARATION by God that we are righteous but rather that we are actually MADE rigteous.

I think I said in a reply in “To live by faith” that in saving us from the pit Christ requires us to put our hand in His. He could have very well yanked us out but no, He wants us to grab His hand.

This action of grace on our soul makes us righteous.

But what does it mean to actually be righteous?

It means following God’s commandments which in a nutshell boils down to love of God and love of neighbour. LOVE is WORK.

One other item would involve Christ as our Model. Considering the amount of work that Christ did … about 30 years that we only have a faint glimmer about His birth and when He was found in the Temple…and, then nothing until His Public Ministery… we should not be looking for worldly recognition in actually practicing our love of God and love of neighbor.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

I am sure even a “certain” person is bound to see it now.

Thank you so much
Blessings
Cinette

You could have gone all day without teasing… “Don’t Feed The Bears” has applications other then in the forrest!

God bless

 

[wina]

Hi Autumn,

I will post here a reply I made to Craig Kennedy in another thread because I think your questions are similar. I will post his question as well.
This is a rather lazy way of replying to you I know, so apologies for that.

Hi Craig,

The seeming contradiction only exists when we fail to understand the interplay between grace and faith.

I think I have said this before but all that salvation by grace means is that it is free. We did not merit it. It is purely as John wrote : because God so loved the world.

But the question is how does God effect salvation? Okay so it is free, so Christ died on the cross once to save us. But have you ever asked yourself how his dying brought on salvation?

The protestant understanding of salvation is like this:
God imputes on us Christ’s righteousness so even though deep inside we are still the same miserable, wretched creatures that we are, His righteousness covers all that muck within so when God sees us, He sees that outer covering that is Christ. In short we are a garbage pit that’s been covered with white turf so it looks pleasing to the eye.

If all that is needed is for us to be imputed with Christ’s righteousness why go to the extent of being human? Furthermore, why the need to suffer and die on the cross?

The Catholic understanding is this: The suffering death and resurrection of Christ opened up heaven so to speak so that the graces are made available to us. Justificatiion is not a mere DECLARATION by God that we are righteous but rather that we are actually MADE rigteous.

I think I said in a reply in “To live by faith” that in saving us from the pit Christ requires us to put our hand in His. He could have very well yanked us out but no, He wants us to grab His hand.

This action of grace on our soul makes us righteous.

But what does it mean to actually be righteous?

It means following God’s commandments which in a nutshell boils down to love of God and love of neighbour. LOVE is WORK.

We do not truly love unless we prove it by our deeds. You can tell your wife till you are blue in the face that you love her but that will mean zilch if you do not bring her a rose every now and again, help her with the chores, look after the children, provide for her, take the time to listen to her, etc., etc.

That is why in one of Paul’s most moving letters he says the greatest is LOVE because to love is to participate in Divine life.

When we get to heaven, faith and hope will cease, but love will still be there and love manifestests itself in WORK so long as we are on this side eternity. That is why we have the phrase “labour of love”.

James is so right when he says “I will show you my faith by my works”.

Christ said follow me. The following of Christ involves a dying to self. A carrying of our crosses. All these involve WORK.

Another reason for the seeming contradiction in your mind is I believe due to a lack of a fully developed understanding of every aspect of salvation.

 

[Protestant101]

The Gospel reading at Mass this morning was John 21:1-14.

Fr Harry usually gives a short commentary on the day’s readings before Mass and this morning he said that John recognised Jesus immediately and Peter, good old precipitant “Simon Peter, who had practically nothing on, wrapped his cloak round him and jumped into the water. …” Father commented that “John has often been called the first mystic - like Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Francis of Assisi, St Dominic…” and he said that as we come to a closer relationship with the Lord we too can be mystics…even P101!!.

I was thinking that you P101 must be very dear to the Lord because you provide Him and the Angels and Saints with a lot of entertainment!

God bless you all
Cinette

I know I am very dear to the Lord and that’s why I changed my signature to it’s current version. LOL, my Wife, my Mom, and pretty well anyone who knows me all say that the angels must have to work overtime, and in pairs or threes just to keep track of me. I am always up to something!

Did that “Fr Harry” actually say “even P101,” and mention me by name, or is that your interjection?

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2:

*And here what is needed is an act of will. To chose to hope when it appears hopeless. *

I have though often about this comment - it is so true; and if there is anyone who has had the experience of doing this, it would be nice to hear from you in this topic. I see God as doing this when He “gave His Son” to “the world.” (Jo.3:16)

I will comment on the last bit first. I don’t think God was doing this when He gave His Son to the world. God does not choose to hope when all appears hopeless because God is omnipotent and He is in eternity. He is our hope. Also, there nothing for God to hope in because He knows that His Son’s dying is precisely to redeem us and that He will raise Him again on the third day.

For us it is different. We are on this side of eternity and so at this stage all we can do is hope. Hope ceases when we get to heaven because then, we posses what we have hoped for on this earth.

There is a saying that God gives us memories that we may have roses in December. When everything is bleak, what helps me go through it are memories of salvific events in my life. I recall the times when everything seemed hopeless and God stepped in. Also, God leads me through scripture passages that confirms His promise. But it is always the waiting that is painful.

St Ignatius counsels people that during periods of consolation, one must remember that this period never lasts and so we should spend time gathering graces so to speak to prepare for when times of desolation arrive.

“Lead us not into temptation” has so much more meaning for in the dark night, the temptation to lose faith is very strong. Recalling little saving events in our lives help keep the hope alive. I also remind myself that this is a purifying stage that I need to go through so that I maybe continue to be freed from anything that keeps me affirming that God alone is indeed enough.

 

[Protestant101]

I will comment on the last bit first. I don’t think God was doing this when He gave His Son to the world. God does not choose to hope when all appears hopeless because God is omnipotent and He is in eternity. He is our hope. Also, there nothing for God to hope in because He knows that His Son’s dying is precisely to redeem us and that He will raise Him again on the third day.

For us it is different. We are on this side of eternity and so at this stage all we can do is hope. Hope ceases when we get to heaven because then, we posses what we have hoped for on this earth.

There is a saying that God gives us memories that we may have roses in December. When everything is bleak, what helps me go through it are memories of salvific events in my life. I recall the times when everything seemed hopeless and God stepped in. Also, God leads me through scripture passages that confirms His promise. But it is always the waiting that is painful.

St Ignatius counsels people that during periods of consolation, one must remember that this period never lasts and so we should spend time gathering graces so to speak to prepare for when times of desolation arrive.

“Lead us not into temptation” has so much more meaning for in the dark night, the temptation to lose faith is very strong. Recalling little saving events in our lives help keep the hope alive. I also remind myself that this is a purifying stage that I need to go through so that I maybe continue to be freed from anything that keeps me affirming that God alone is indeed enough.

I guess I would have a hard time picturing Jesus as not having hope Himself; even though (of course) He is our Hope. But in reference to the comment re St Ignatius, it reminds me of the following Scripture:

2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Co 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess I would have a hard time picturing Jesus as not having hope Himself; even though (of course) He is our Hope

Well if you take hope as meaning a desire for something that is yet to be fulfilled (say hope of our salvation) then we can say that Christ have no need of hope because He already knows the outcome.

For example, if you say that you are hoping that your team wins, when the event is over (whether your team wins or lose), the hope is no longer there.

In the same vein if you know that you are going to win (say someone has rigged the game) there is no need for hope because you are already assured of the outcome.

Since Christ is in eternity and knows how it is all going to pan out, then there is no need for hope. This is tied closely with faith. We have faith now but in heaven we do not need faith because that which we have faith on is already a reality.

But in reference to the comment re St Ignatius, it reminds me of the following Scripture:

 

[benedictus2]

P101,

I clicked on the prayer link on your signature and I thought yo might like this one too.

This is John Michael Talbot’s rendition of my signature

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2,

This was really a nice link. I had never heard of John Michael Talbot before … now, I will be looking for him!

P101,

I clicked on the prayer link on your signature and I thought yo might like this one too.

This is John Michael Talbot’s rendition of my signature

Oh, P101… I think after you get the idea that God does not hope for anything … you will find that He does not have faith, either! yep… God is Love - and that is why Charity alone remains!

Tom

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Benedictus2,

This was really a nice link. I had never heard of John Michael Talbot before … now, I will be looking for him!

Oh, P101… I think after you get the idea that God does not hope for anything … you will find that He does not have faith, either! yep… God is Love - and that is why Charity alone remains!

Tom

John Michael Talbot is a gem - he has a superb voice. He is a convert, is married and a 'third order Franciscan"

I have several of his DVDs and my favouriteis called “Table of Plenty” with songs like “Glory and Praise to the Lord”, “On Eagles Wings” “One Bread, One Body” “Here I am Lord” “The Cry of the Poor” “Be not Afraid” - I am sure you are all familiar with these. It is an absolute treat. No Christian home should be without his music.

Cinette