The love of thy God and the question I struggle with

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Volim

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Why was there a need for God to have a tree of life amongst Adam and Eve?

God could have chosen not to have a tree there and man would be in paradise forever.

Sure Adam and Eve could have listened to God and not eaten but it’s like telling your children not to do something when eventually they will.

The question then is if your children did something against your will how far would you go to punish them? Would you never love them again?

Would you also let satan amongst your children to tempt and let them fall to never see them again?

Now if we are his children and God our Father it doesn’t sit right with me? Sure some will say that’s free will but that free will could supposedly cost me my life in hell or eternity without God. Why do I need to be tested, tempted and judged?

For example one could say it’s not fair for Muslim to be born into that religion or the Hindu? One could also say it would be better to have died as a child to have a better chance of eternal life than to live a thousand years, sin and never see God again or eternal punishment?

I mean where does God draw a line in the sand when it comes to judgment and eternal life or hell? Imagine being an inch short and missing out. How crushed would you be!

Does God discriminate when it comes to judgement? I say this cause I imagine Moses, David and Paul are in heaven for some fairly big sins against the commandments of God? If God has pardoned their sins then one would hope others receive that pardon.

My take on all this is God had to show us everything that is good and bad. Why, because he doesn’t want to come across as some communist dictator who only shows you one T.V. station and broadcast so you only get one side of the story. In my opinion that means all are saved. In saying this it doesn’t mean one can do what they want like Paul’s longing to be with Christ doesn’t mean he can kill himself to get there. Doing bad things is not what people really want to do anyways! Fear is what makes us do the things we don’t want to.

The most beautiful thing I ever heard about God other than Jesus is God didn’t make us so we can impress him with our love; he made us so he can impress us with his.

Thank God for Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who washes away the sin of the world.

What’s your take on this?
 
I used to think about this.

My take is that love is greater when it is given willingly, and God wanted to be loved in that way. He was not satisfied with the praise of angels who had no free will.
 
Yes, God purposely placed the tree in a spot where Adam and Eve could reach it via human action. This isn’t faulty garden planning, but a chance for Adam and Eve to prove their fidelity to their maker. Free-will is all there is to it.

Adam and Eve were created wise, but made themselves and their descendants fools. We are naturally fools, and therefore don’t deserve Heaven.

There is a saying: How can you soar like an eagle if you hang out with turkeys?

Adam and Eve made themselves turkeys by associating themselves with Satan, who is the king of turkeys. Turkeys can’t fly, and so Adam and Eve could no longer fly up to Heaven. All was lost, God’s friendship and peace forever lost until Christ came down.

How did Solomon, the Prophets, and the Apostles, namely Peter, became persons of honor within Scripture and tradition? (Solomon to a lesser extent. He lusted to his own shame.) Because they associated themselves with God, who is the eagle, the source of wisdom. :harp:

If you wish to ask the more sensitive questions about mortality, then feel free to ask God yourself in prayer, or one of the Apologists here. 👋
 
Jamma said:
I used to think about this.

My take is that love is greater when it is given willingly, and God wanted to be loved in that way. He was not satisfied with the praise of angels who had no free will.
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Angels have free will - they had to make a choice for or against God. Satan and the other demons are fallen angels who chose to reject God.
 
Volim said:
Why was there a need for God to have a tree of life amongst Adam and Eve?

God could have chosen not to have a tree there and man would be in paradise forever.

Sure Adam and Eve could have listened to God and not eaten but it’s like telling your children not to do something when eventually they will.

The question then is if your children did something against your will how far would you go to punish them? Would you never love them again?

Would you also let satan amongst your children to tempt and let them fall to never see them again?

Now if we are his children and God our Father it doesn’t sit right with me? Sure some will say that’s free will but that free will could supposedly cost me my life in hell or eternity without God. Why do I need to be tested, tempted and judged?

For example one could say it’s not fair for Muslim to be born into that religion or the Hindu? One could also say it would be better to have died as a child to have a better chance of eternal life than to live a thousand years, sin and never see God again or eternal punishment?

I mean where does God draw a line in the sand when it comes to judgment and eternal life or hell? Imagine being an inch short and missing out. How crushed would you be!

Does God discriminate when it comes to judgement? I say this cause I imagine Moses, David and Paul are in heaven for some fairly big sins against the commandments of God? If God has pardoned their sins then one would hope others receive that pardon.

My take on all this is God had to show us everything that is good and bad. Why, because he doesn’t want to come across as some communist dictator who only shows you one T.V. station and broadcast so you only get one side of the story. In my opinion that means all are saved. In saying this it doesn’t mean one can do what they want like Paul’s longing to be with Christ doesn’t mean he can kill himself to get there. Doing bad things is not what people really want to do anyways! Fear is what makes us do the things we don’t want to.

The most beautiful thing I ever heard about God other than Jesus is God didn’t make us so we can impress him with our love; he made us so he can impress us with his.

Thank God for Jesus Christ the Lamb of God who washes away the sin of the world.

What’s your take on this?
Click to expand...
Don’t you want your children to be good voluntarily? To love freely (not coerced)?
Being an inch short of hell I reckon that’s what purgatory is for.

I like to think that everyone is eventually saved (comes to Him freely and purified), and that we do not know or understand all of the mechanisms God has for that.
 
I think this comes down to, do you take the creation story literally?
 
bauerice said:
I think this comes down to, do you take the creation story literally?
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This (to an extent-- the fall of man being a literal event), plus:

The whole reason God allows evil to exist is because greater good and love is able to be brought about because of it. If humans were simply able to dwell in paradise for all eternity and there was never any struggle to accept God’s will and deny evil, then how would we cultivate our souls, learn to love God by our own free will and acceptance, and therefore glorify God?

The free human choice between the greatest Good and the most vile evil glorifies God. When we choose God over the riches and pleasures of this world, we glorify God. None of this is possible to the degree and extent necessary if evil does not exist, that is, a contrast from what is the Greatest Good.

It was all in God’s plan. His providential will allowed it to happen, and he knew that when the artistic portrait of Creation was complete, everything would ultimately be better as a result of it. We see only a fraction of Creation in our time and limited understanding of His plan.
 
I am encouraged by some of these posts, because the question I too struggle with is how could God not save all? The more and more I think and pray about it, the more I think that he will save all. Scripture is full of such indications. While no one besides God can say with certainty, I think the fact that Gods love never ceases, his mercies are new every morning, but there will be no more pain, death, mourning, or curse, are all good signs. That being said, I struggle with fear of eternal hell. I like how it was also pointed out we have a limited understanding of His plan. All of this I find encouraging.
 
Estel said:
I am encouraged by some of these posts, because the question I too struggle with is how could God not save all? The more and more I think and pray about it, the more I think that he will save all. Scripture is full of such indications. While no one besides God can say with certainty, I think the fact that Gods love never ceases, his mercies are new every morning, but there will be no more pain, death, mourning, or curse, are all good signs. That being said, I struggle with fear of eternal hell. I like how it was also pointed out we have a limited understanding of His plan. All of this I find encouraging.
Click to expand...
How are we to know the extent of His plan of salvation? The only thing that the Church formally rejects, to my knowledge, is Origen’s version of Apocatastasis, whereby even Satan himself is reconciled with God (though it’s a nice thought, isn’t it?). I think the Church says that it is possible for every human person to be saved, since we ultimately cannot know the full nature of His plan of salvation, with the exception of demons and Satan.

Why else would we be compelled to pray for the salvation and reconciliation of all humanity if it weren’t possible? Why else would we pray for all souls?
 
We are attracted to the idea of universalism, that all are saved, certainly not to contradict the infinite mercy of God.

But, God has revealed the existence of hell and the certainty of infinite damnation. Why don’t we just run with what we have?

Regarding this whole Adam and Eve thing, a good but expensive book that bears heavily on the Fall is The One Christ by Fr. David Vincent Meconi, SJ, asst. prof. of theology. The book discusses the idea of deification in the writings of St. Augustine. He says this is the only book-length treatment of the subject.

Aside from cost, there are heavy doses of citations in latin, greek, german, and french. For the few who want to wade through this excellent theology book, Meconi discusses his thesis that Augustine uses deification as a metaphor for salvation and for the Christian life. The running idea is that through original sin, we lost the likeness of God, but that through Jesus Christ we are deified, not in our nature, but in the restoration of the likeness of our created beings to God.

One detail that he brings out strongly is that Eve and Adam, in their garden of natural happiness, are tempted with the only thing that they could have been tempted with, to disregard their created and bestowed likeness to God and to be even greater, to be like God – the thing that certainly the father of lies could not deliver to them.
 
MacQ said:
Don’t you want your children to be good voluntarily? To love freely (not coerced)?
Being an inch short of hell I reckon that’s what purgatory is for.

I like to think that everyone is eventually saved (comes to Him freely and purified), and that we do not know or understand all of the mechanisms God has for that.
Click to expand...
Everyone would like that, however do we need satan so we can be voluntary?

The power of evil is so strong and also unnoticeable most people don’t even realise it.

The reason I asked does God discriminate (which he doesn’t) is the because of the past sins of the people close to him David, Moses and Paul and how so many judge others and condemn them to hell. Sorry but I don’t know how to phrase the question any better?
 
sirach2v4 said:
We are attracted to the idea of universalism, that all are saved, certainly not to contradict the infinite mercy of God.

But, God has revealed the existence of hell and the certainty of infinite damnation. Why don’t we just run with what we have?

Regarding this whole Adam and Eve thing, a good but expensive book that bears heavily on the Fall is The One Christ by Fr. David Vincent Meconi, SJ, asst. prof. of theology. The book discusses the idea of deification in the writings of St. Augustine. He says this is the only book-length treatment of the subject.

Aside from cost, there are heavy doses of citations in latin, greek, german, and french. For the few who want to wade through this excellent theology book, Meconi discusses his thesis that Augustine uses deification as a metaphor for salvation and for the Christian life. The running idea is that through original sin, we lost the likeness of God, but that through Jesus Christ we are deified, not in our nature, but in the restoration of the likeness of our created beings to God.

One detail that he brings out strongly is that Eve and Adam, in their garden of natural happiness, are tempted with the only thing that they could have been tempted with, to disregard their created and bestowed likeness to God and to be even greater, to be like God – the thing that certainly the father of lies could not deliver to them.
Click to expand...
Do you really think there is a pill one can swallow to be like God?

I don’t think Adam and Eve wanted to be like God at all.

Are we saying if Adam N Eve didn’t eat from the tree we would be forever kept in the dark like a mushroom? Dumb and unaware?

I don’t think that is what God wanted?
 
Jamma said:
I used to think about this.

My take is that love is greater when it is given willingly, and God wanted to be loved in that way. He was not satisfied with the praise of angels who had no free will.
Click to expand...
I don’t think God created us so we can praise him. He created us so he can show mankind his love for us.

Jesus confirms that love.
 
Faxero said:
Yes, God purposely placed the tree in a spot where Adam and Eve could reach it via human action. This isn’t faulty garden planning, but a chance for Adam and Eve to prove their fidelity to their maker. Free-will is all there is to it.

Adam and Eve were created wise, but made themselves and their descendants fools. We are naturally fools, and therefore don’t deserve Heaven.

There is a saying: How can you soar like an eagle if you hang out with turkeys?

Adam and Eve made themselves turkeys by associating themselves with Satan, who is the king of turkeys. Turkeys can’t fly, and so Adam and Eve could no longer fly up to Heaven. All was lost, God’s friendship and peace forever lost until Christ came down.

How did Solomon, the Prophets, and the Apostles, namely Peter, became persons of honor within Scripture and tradition? (Solomon to a lesser extent. He lusted to his own shame.) Because they associated themselves with God, who is the eagle, the source of wisdom. :harp:

If you wish to ask the more sensitive questions about mortality, then feel free to ask God yourself in prayer, or one of the Apologists here. 👋
Click to expand...
Paul never associated himself with God but I imagine he flew like an eagle?

Come to think of it neither have the Jews around Jesus?
 
Volim,

You wrote that you don’t think God created us to praise him; and that He created us so he can show mankind his love for us.

What jumped out at me when I read your statements is that I agree that God created us because he wants us to experience His love…and once we begin to experience it and act on it, and become sanctified by that Love, then we will WANT to praise him.
 
Jamma said:
I did not state that.
.
Click to expand...
You did state this,“My take is that love is greater when it is given willingly, and God wanted to be loved in that way. He was not satisfied with the praise of angels who had no free will.”.

You state that he was not satisfied with the praise of Angels so you imply that he would be satisfied with the praise of man?

I don’t believe he **created **us so we could praise/love him, he created us so he can show how much he loves us and Jesus confirms that.
 
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