The Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod

[Simeon_Hovey]

About 18 months ago the Holy Spirit led me to a Lutheran Church, due to a spinal cord injury I cannot attend as often as I would like and have not learned as much about the church, the synod, or the pastor as one would normally. Also I’m not a member because the Holy Spirit has not led me there.

I attend a monthly singles group and one of the questions that came up is: What is truth? Since the discussion exceeded the time alloted for the group I volunteered to send out an email to see if anyone wanted to further discuss this subject, which I did sent. The group leader forwarded my email to the pastor who put on it the disclaimer that my email wasn’t an officially sanctioned Lutheran document/meeting. At that point I dropped all efforts to form such a group.

Last week in a discussion with the pastor about the email he said that neither he nor the church have had the time to get to know who I am and he talked about how he needs to control the agendas of all the church’s groups to make sure we’re on topic, don’t get off the subject, and so the church as a whole stay in synch under his leadership. (And if this means anything he insists on being addressed as: Pastor “Smith”.)

I’ve never had this happen before and am beginning to get the feeling that if an Angel from God were to walk into the Singles Group (or maybe even the church) that he wouldn’t be recognized for not being on the agenda. If the group is as tightly controlled as was explained to me then is there room for the intercession of the Holy Spirit? After all in the Book of Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles, that wasn’t on their agenda either.

 

[Newbie2]

What you seem to be experiencing isn’t limited to the LCMS, or Lutherans in general, or even Christians in general; every one of us has met a good-intentioned control freak.

While “freak” may not apply to “Pastor Smith”, it seems either there is a misunderstanding or that he really feels a need to control “the agendas of all the church’s groups to make sure (they’re) on topic”. Control is the key word. Does he just want to make sure church groups aren’t getting into subjects that are contrary to Lutheran doctrine and practice or does he want to micromanage what the groups are discussing?

Otherwise, since the LCMS hasn’t defined “truth” but he feels he must have some control over a group that discusses “truth”, why not just meet on your own with anyone else interested outside that particular church?

Truth is as much a Philosophical as a Theological topic, and perhaps “Pastor Smith” doesn’t feel comfortable overseeing the topic (whether or not he’s been asked to do so). It is my impression that Lutheran Theological training is either very light or missing any philosophical training, having a close friend studying for the LCMS ministry as we speak. Catholic theology, OTOH, borrows heavily from philosophy, not any philosophy in particular, but shall we say in “Philosophical theological methods”.

 

[Simeon_Hovey]

If anyone is interested: This is the email I posted for a few meetings to discuss the truth.

During our May 2010 meeting one of the questions that came up is what is The Truth? This question is one of, and is perhaps, the ultimate question in Christianity – what IS the truth? (Perhaps contrasted with what is reality?)

A few of us expressed some interest in gathering together more often (perhaps weekly) at another place to discuss this question.* Since I live in Walkertown it might be a more convenient place-in-the-middle for those who live between Kville and W-S; so I’m offering my house as a meeting place for this discussion; if anyone has a better location then we can go there. *

Another thing to consider is whether or not it’s possible to put together a lesson plan on how to discover The Truth; this is because each person’s path to the truth is usually a very personal one. Jesus meets each of us at our point of need and works with us from there. I can think of several ways to jump-start our discussion/search and would like to hear the ideas from everyone who is interested. My suggestion is that at our first meeting we start to hash these things out, the Book of Acts can be our guide (For those who haven’t read Acts it is the history of how the early church was formed).

• If only 1 other person is interested in doing this my offer still goes. I also think that, if this search takes off, anyone should be welcome. So if the group agrees it’s my thought we should feel free to invite anyone interested in learning about Christianity, becoming a Christian or who wishes to learn more about their faith in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

The reason I wanted to find the truth is because I believed what John wrote in 1 John 1:4 “And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.” [The word full means compressed as much as possible or a cup running over. John invites us to a life that is full with joy. This isn’t to say I’ve never experienced pain, sorrow or fell (very) short of His will (and will do it again); but living a Christian life has brought me more joy & serenity in the midst of life than I ever could have imagined on my own.]
So if anyone is interested please say so (and/or feel free to contact me)

Simeon

In the following are some thoughts and scripture I’ve put together that bear on The Truth.

Before searching for The Truth I would feel remiss were I to not quote Jesus’ own words on this subject.

Luke 14:25 - 35 “And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and does not love less* his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever does not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sits not down first, and counts the cost, whether he has enough to finish it? Lest perhaps, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sits not down first, and consults whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him that comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation, and desires conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all that he has, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt has lost its taste, how shall it be restored? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dung hill; but men cast it out. He that has ears to hear, let him hear. (KJV 2000)

• This is a different word than what is rendered in most English bibles; interestingly enough when I talked to Stan Z about this passage he read a Japanese version of the bible and the above is how the word is rendered. To “love less” is the correct translation, every scholar agrees with this and my own studies of the Greek language lead me to the same conclusion.

Also I did a search on the words of Jesus in which he used the phrase, “the truth”, some of you may wish to read the full passages, paragraphs or even the chapters quoted. In my own experience the more I read before and after a quote the more understanding I get.

Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.*

 

[Wordster]

Hey, Simeon, that pastor sounds like a clone of the one that heads a church I attended for several years (not Lutheran, though). Possibly, he’s afraid that you’re an undercover relativist and you’ll lead the sheep astray.

Anyway, why don’t you just do the group as your own private gathering, iow not under the aegis of the church? He has no right to tell you whom you can or can’t invite/consort with.

If you get non-believers in there, though, you’re in for a lot of beating-the-air, bec. usually, they’re thoroughly saturated with what I call Pilate’s Syndrome (nothing to do with the exercise method), i.e. the concept that there is no such thing as Truth, so you’d be doing a lot of tailchasing in your discussions. But I admire your gumption in wanting to try.

Good luck with it and keep us posted.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

The people who were invited to your house are free to do what they want, and assuredly the pastor of the church knows this, but he is not obligated to sanction whatever might be taught merely because a non-member of the church was originally welcomed at a singles group. It would be essential that he issue the people in the group a disclaimer as to whether a meeting at your house is approved.

It does mean something to be Pastor Smith. It means that he perceives a responsibility as a shepherd for proper instruction of his flock. The Scriptures inform us that Christ established a visible spiritual kingdom, His Church. There is no question that this kingdom is hierarchical beginning with Christ the Son who obeyed His Father followed by Apostles, and the bishops and priests who were ordained to succeed them.

As a Catholic, I obviously have differences of opinion with Lutherans but in this instance we agree that it would be intolerable for the recognized ruler of a local church to willy nilly concede his God-given responsibility to guide his people to someone he barely knows. The Scriptures approve of pastoral oversight and the submission of Christians to those God has placed over them:

Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation…and…Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief.

—Heb. 13:7, 17

So yes if an angel should appear to me in a church or singles group that tries to usurp the authority of the lawful prelate, I would be obliged to recognize him as an agent of the devil rather than God. In the context of instructing his own flock St. John the Apostle also issues a warning against angels or ordinary men who would teach contrarily to what they have received:

These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you. And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.

—I Jn. 2:26, 27

As Christ’s sheep we have a responsibility to follow the good shepherds. There are ways of identifying those who have God-given authority to lead us and Catholics cannot admit that Pastor Smith of the Missouri Synod Lutherans has this authority. But at least he and his flock see the need for the form of control that prevents the faithful from being led astray by a charismatic outsider who proclaims no need to follow any hierarchical order. It is in this respect that I applaud the actions of Pastor Smith because he is clearly more Catholic, and closer to the revealed realities of Christ’s kingdom than he would be if he were to admit, on the basis of alleged possible movements of the Holy Ghost, a virtual anarchy whereby his flock would be exposed equally to every wind of doctrine. His people have chosen to be Mo. Synod Lutherans, and so long as they have, he is fulfilling his duty by seeing that they are fed Mo. Synod teaching.

Rory