The Lutheran Rosary

[Padres1969]

I was referring to the “Holy Catholic” part not the prayer itself. I get the “universal” part, just not the big C little c and the mental gymnastics needed to bring that around to being part of the universal church.

I do find it interesting how folks adapt her Sacraments/Sacramentals though.

Not much in the way of mental gymnastics needed. The word “catholic” means universal. No gymnastics needed.

 

[GKC]

I was referring to the “Holy Catholic” part not the prayer itself. I get the “universal” part, just not the big C little c and the mental gymnastics needed to bring that around to being part of the universal church.

I do find it interesting how folks adapt her Sacraments/Sacramentals though.

Apropos of nothing Lutheran related, in particular, in the 1928 Book of Common Prayer (accept no substitutes), the Creed refers to “one Catholic and Apostolic Church”. For an Anglican, of a particular stripe and flavor, this says that the Church Universal is also the Church Apostolic. And any who possess the Apostolic Succession, form the Church mentioned in the Creed. Schismatic though portions of it may be. Concurrency not expected.

Yes, as some here know, I’m more than reasonably acquainted with Apostolicae Curae.

 

[alphomega]

Not much in the way of mental gymnastics needed. The word “catholic” means universal. No gymnastics needed.

My feelings exactly Catholic = universal. Well, not exactly big C little c again and on and on…

I’d still be interested in learning about Why no Hail Mary. Seems Luther had a real devotion to her

 

[GKC]

My feelings exactly Catholic = universal. Well, not exactly big C little c again and on and on…

I’d still be interested in learning about Why no Hail Mary. Seems Luther had a real devotion to her

Apropos of nothing particularly Lutheran, we in my parish no longer have a sung *Angelus *after the sung Sunday Mass. But we still have a spoken one after the Wednesday Mass.

 

[Padres1969]

My feelings exactly Catholic = universal. Well, not exactly big C little c again and on and on…

I’d still be interested in learning about Why no Hail Mary. Seems Luther had a real devotion to her

Probably because the current post-Trent Hail Mary also asks for Mary’s intercession on behalf of the penitent. Protestants and intercession don’t typically go together. Indeed Luther as I recall, while supporting honoring Mary and the saints, did not support asking for their intercession.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I was referring to the “Holy Catholic” part not the prayer itself. I get the “universal” part, just not the big C little c and the mental gymnastics needed to bring that around to being part of the universal church.

I do find it interesting how folks adapt her Sacraments/Sacramentals though.

Indeed. Usually, when we recite the Nicene or Apostle’s Creed in church, we say " one, holy, Christian and Apostolic Church" rather than " catholic" praiselutheran.com/learn/lutheran-belief-and-practice/. There is really no need for " mental gymnastics" of any sort on a topic so clear. In fact, there are two Articles of the Augsburg Confession, Articles VII and VIII that spell out what the Church is:

*Article VII: Of the Church.

1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.

2] And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and 3] the administration of the Sacraments. **Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. 4] As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6. **

Article VIII: What the Church Is.

1] Although the Church properly is the congregation of saints and true believers, nevertheless, since in this life many hypocrites and evil persons are mingled therewith, it is lawful to use Sacraments administered by evil men, according to the saying of Christ: The Scribes and 2] the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, etc. Matt. 23:2. Both the Sacraments and Word are effectual by reason of the institution and commandment of Christ, notwithstanding they be administered by evil men.

3] They condemn the Donatists, and such like, who denied it to be lawful to use the ministry of evil men in the Church, and who thought the ministry of evil men to be unprofitable and of none effect.
*

Who needs to make excuses for what we hold so dearly to be the truth?

 

[LutheranScholar]

My feelings exactly Catholic = universal. Well, not exactly big C little c again and on and on…

I’d still be interested in learning about Why no Hail Mary. Seems Luther had a real devotion to her

I probably already shared this link, but I’ll do so again to underscore that( some) Lutherans do have a great respect for the Blessed Mother, just like Luther did: confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/29/how-should-we-hail-mary/ and here’s the Evangelical praise for the Mother of God:" O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example." reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2a9l42/luthers_evangelical_praise_of_the_mother_of_god/

Glorious Mysteries today! How beautifully the Lord has made provision, even for* us* poor sinners!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I probably already shared this link, but I’ll do so again to underscore that( some) Lutherans do have a great respect for the Blessed Mother, just like Luther did: confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/29/how-should-we-hail-mary/ and here’s the Evangelical praise for the Mother of God:" O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example." reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2a9l42/luthers_evangelical_praise_of_the_mother_of_god/

Glorious Mysteries today! How beautifully the Lord has made provision, even for* us* poor sinners!

I have maintained over the years that the primary reason for the later Marian dogmas were in response to the radical late reformers downright disrespect of our Lady. I mean the beliefs were already there - they were organic, but i think the Church felt the need to defend our Lady and made things official thanks to these radical reformers. Luther loved our Lady and the other early reformers did too.

And this is a interesting thread. I attended a Lutheran church(Missuori synod) for about 5-6 months and never heard anything or saw anything about rosaries. Never would have guessed it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[steido01]

I don’t know anything about the L.C.M.S.

Indeed.

but I’d have to guess it derives from Luther some how and it seems he didn’t feel that way…

Luther held to the idea and devotional practice of the veneration of Mary and expressed this on innumerable occasions with the most effusive language:

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. …She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation. 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace… .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

I think you misunderstand both Luther and the LCMS here, friend. Both of them hold to the exact same view, that is: Mary is the Mother of God (theotokos) and we should therefore thank God for her Christian witness and example. Did you catch that? The praise and prayer is not due to Mary, but to God. Neither Luther nor the LCMS encourages asking for her intercession.

 

[steido01]

Probably because the current post-Trent Hail Mary also asks for Mary’s intercession on behalf of the penitent. Protestants and intercession don’t typically go together. Indeed Luther as I recall, while supporting honoring Mary and the saints, did not support asking for their intercession.

Yup. And that’s what Lutherans do today, too. We have feasts and commemorations for the Saints, but do not ask them for their intercessions. We know that the saints in heaven already pray for us.

 

[alphomega]

Indeed.

I think you misunderstand both Luther and the LCMS here, friend.

It’s Hard to understand something I know nothing about. But I am learning.

Both of them hold to the exact same view, that is: Mary is the Mother of God (theotokos) and we should therefore thank God for her Christian witness and example. Did you catch that? The praise and prayer is not due to Mary, but to God. Neither Luther nor the LCMS encourages asking for her intercession.

I did catch it. Doesn’t really answer my question though. I keep wondering when it changed. At what point did Luther decide not to pray to Mary. Or, is your point Luther never prayed to our Blessed Mother?

I would take issue with (at the very least) not owing praise and prayer and a really BIG THANK YOU to Mary. After all…she could have said NO!

 

[alphomega]

Indeed. Usually, when we recite the Nicene or Apostle’s Creed in church, we say " one, holy, Christian and Apostolic Church" rather than " catholic" praiselutheran.com/learn/lutheran-belief-and-practice/. There is really no need for " mental gymnastics" of any sort on a topic so clear. In fact, there are two Articles of the Augsburg Confession, Articles VII and VIII that spell out what the Church is:

*Article VII: Of the Church.

1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.*

2] And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and 3] the administration of the Sacraments. **Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. 4] As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6. **

Article VIII: What the Church Is.

1] Although the Church properly is the congregation of saints and true believers, nevertheless, since in this life many hypocrites and evil persons are mingled therewith, it is lawful to use Sacraments administered by evil men, according to the saying of Christ: The Scribes and 2] the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, etc. Matt. 23:2. Both the Sacraments and Word are effectual by reason of the institution and commandment of Christ, notwithstanding they be administered by evil men.

3] They condemn the Donatists, and such like, who denied it to be lawful to use the ministry of evil men in the Church, and who thought the ministry of evil men to be unprofitable and of none effect.

Who needs to make excuses for what we hold so dearly to be the truth?

I haven’t had time to read through your link but I’m guessing it’s not from the Vatican

 

[alphomega]

I probably already shared this link, but I’ll do so again to underscore that( some) Lutherans do have a great respect for the Blessed Mother, just like Luther did: confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/29/how-should-we-hail-mary/ and here’s the Evangelical praise for the Mother of God:" O Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, what great comfort God has shown us in you, by so graciously regarding your unworthiness and low estate. This encourages us to believe that henceforth He will not despise us poor and lowly ones, but graciously regard us also, according to your example." reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/2a9l42/luthers_evangelical_praise_of_the_mother_of_god/

Glorious Mysteries today! How beautifully the Lord has made provision, even for* us* poor sinners!

Thanks, so much for sharing the information. I really appreciate it.
God Bless

 

[JonNC]

I haven’t had time to read through your link but I’m guessing it’s not from the Vatican

Why, when asking about Lutheran practice and doctrine, would you expect or even suspect it would come from the Vatican?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

It’s Hard to understand something I know nothing about. But I am learning.

I did catch it. Doesn’t really answer my question though. I keep wondering when it changed. At what point did Luther decide not to pray to Mary. Or, is your point Luther never prayed to our Blessed Mother?

I would take issue with (at the very least) not owing praise and prayer and a really BIG THANK YOU to Mary. After all…she could have said NO!

It isn’t that one can’t invoke the saints. The issue at the time was the requirement that one do so. The Lutheran confessions speak to this, and the response it there is no example, command, or promise attached to it. Here, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Our Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved. The first is thanksgiving. For we ought to give thanks to God because He has shown examples of mercy; because He has shown that He wishes to save men; because He has given teachers or other gifts to the Church. And these gifts, as they are the greatest, should be amplified, and the saints themselves should be praised, who have faithfully used these gifts, just as Christ praises faithful business-men, 5] Matt. 25:21, 23. The second service is the strengthening of our faith; when we see the denial forgiven Peter, we also are encouraged to believe the more that grace 6] truly superabounds over sin, Rom. 5:20. The third honor is the imitation, first, of faith, then of the other virtues, which every one should imitate according to his calling. 7] These true honors the adversaries do not require. They dispute only concerning invocation, which, even though it would have no danger, nevertheless is not necessary.

8] Besides, we also grant that the angels pray for us. For there is a testimony in Zech. 1:12, where an angel prays: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have mercy on 9] Jerusalem? Although concerning the saints we concede that, just as, when alive, they pray for the Church universal in general, so in heaven they pray for the Church in general, albeit no testimony concerning the praying of the dead is extant in the Scriptures, except the dream taken from the Second Book of Maccabees, 15:14.

Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10] yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one? 11] Some plainly ascribe divinity to the saints, namely, that they discern the silent thoughts of the minds in us. They dispute concerning morning and evening knowledge, perhaps because they doubt whether they hear us in the morning or the evening. They invent these things, not in order to treat the saints with honor, but to defend lucrative services. 12] Nothing can be produced by the adversaries against this reasoning, that, since invocation does not have a testimony from God’s Word, it cannot be affirmed that the saints understand our invocation, or, even if they understand it, that God approves it. Therefore 13] the adversaries ought not to force us to an uncertain matter, because a prayer without faith is not prayer. For when they cite the example of the Church, it is evident that this is a new custom in the Church; for although the old prayers make mention of the saints, yet they do not invoke the saints. Although also this new invocation in the Church is dissimilar to the invocation of individuals.

14] Again, the adversaries not only require invocation in the worship of the saints, but also apply the merits of the saints to others, and make of the saints not only intercessors, but also propitiators. This is in no way to be endured. For here the honor belonging only to Christ is altogether transferred to the saints. For they make them mediators and propitiators, and although they make a distinction between mediators of intercession and mediators [the Mediator] of redemption, yet they plainly make of the saints mediators of redemption. 15] But even that they are mediators of intercession they declare without the testimony of Scripture, which, be it said ever so reverently, nevertheless obscures Christ’s office, and transfers the confidence of mercy due Christ to the saints. For men imagine that Christ is more severe and the saints more easily appeased, and they trust rather to the mercy of the saints than to the mercy of Christ, and fleeing from Christ [as from a tyrant], they seek the saints. Thus they actually make of them mediators of redemption.

Jon

 

[steido01]

It’s Hard to understand something I know nothing about. But I am learning.

That’s fair.

I did catch it. Doesn’t really answer my question though. I keep wondering when it changed. At what point did Luther decide not to pray to Mary. Or, is your point Luther never prayed to our Blessed Mother?

I’m saying that the LCMS and Luther have always held the same view; nothing changed. It is God who deserves all glory, laud and honor – “Soli Deo Gloria!” Jon answered the rest of your question.

I would take issue with (at the very least) not owing praise and prayer and a really BIG THANK YOU to Mary. After all…she could have said NO!

And so we owe God thanks for preserving her and setting her as a wonderful, motherly example to us all.

 

[LutheranScholar]

That’s fair.

I’m saying that the LCMS and Luther have always held the same view; nothing changed. It is God who deserves all glory, laud and honor – “Soli Deo Gloria!” Jon answered the rest of your question.

And so we owe God thanks for preserving her and setting her as a wonderful, motherly example to us all.

Amen, so we do. It’s the difference between synergism and monergism. We believe and confess that apart from the grace of God by faith given by the Holy Spirit, we have no salvation and can do nothing to effect our own salvation. God beheld and favored Mary because of His own gracious will and while she truly is the Mother of God, it was because of the Lord’s grace, not of anything she did. God who knows all would have chosen one who would have said " yes," if He knew that Mary in particular would have refused Him.

God did all the work then, he does all the work now. To quote our minister before his sermons, sola Scriptura,sola gratia, sola fide, sola Christus, soli Deo gloria.
Sorrowful Mysteries today. Such love…

 

[total_Catholic]

I suppose it depends on the Lutheran. A lot of Lutherans would be wary about using a devotion like this in the same way they would be wary about making the Sign of the Cross at the Invocation, or after corporate ( or private) Confession and Absolution, although such impressions are seen by some as sorely misguided: steadfastlutherans.org/2014/03/on-making-the-sign-of-the-cross/,
confessingevangelical.com/2005/04/29/how-should-we-hail-mary/,
catholicbridge.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.php.

When I was part of the LCMS, I always made the sign of the cross during the service at the apporiate times. The pastor would as well, especially when praying over the bread and wine. Even heard an ELCA minister tell his congregation they needed to make the sign of the cross numerous times throughout the day. Loved it!

 

[Padres1969]

When I was part of the LCMS, I always made the sign of the cross during the service at the apporiate times. The pastor would as well, especially when praying over the bread and wine. Even heard an ELCA minister tell his congregation they needed to make the sign of the cross numerous times throughout the day. Loved it!

Yeah I wasn’t aware any branch of Lutheranism shy’ed away from the sign of the cross. I mean I get possibly shying away from the rosary. I mean the Small Catechism as I understand it explicitly requests the practice. As do the LCMS’s Lutheran Service Book and the ELCA’s Evangelical Lutheran Worship.

 

[Hatikvah]

Lutheran rosary? I was actually interested in doing a rosary-like (prayer beads, more or less) practice, and I prefer something closer to Luther’s. (My family and I go to a Methodist church weekly, but I would not consider myself a Methodist due to doctrinal and practical disagreements, and I am not a member of the UMC.)

This is certainly something I will look into, and I found a Wikihow article on how to pray it. Simple prayers. It would probably be good for me because I want a more Protestant tradition (I’m scared of Anglican prayer beads at the moment…)