The Main reason I translated to Catholicism from Orthodoxy

[mardukm]

Dear brother MarcoPolo,

What is the difference in these 2 terms?

To me, a conversion is a change in essence, while a translation is merely a change in form.

Analogically, when one translates a word from one language to another, only the form (or accidents) change, but the essence or meaning remains the same.

Ecclesiastically speaking, a translation is a physical movement from one ecclesiastical environment or jurisdiction to another (hence, relics can be translated, bishops can be translated, etc.).

I sincerely believe that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible, and not mutually exclusive. What I believe as a Coptic Orthodox I retain as a Catholic. What I believe IN has not changed. Only what I believed ABOUT Catholicism changed. It went from misinformation to the truth of the matter. The misinformation I possessed ABOUT Catholicism is not the essence of Orthodoxy, so I remain - ever and always - an Orthodox in communion with Rome (as were my forebears before the Great Misunderstanding of the Chalcedonian Schism).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cavaradossi]

Analogically, when one translates a word from one language to another, only the form (or accidents) change, but the essence or meaning remains the same.

This is kind of a tangent, but do you find that any given concept in one language can be translated into another? It has been my experience, speaking a few languages since I was young, that there are some concepts which simply do not have analogues in other languages. For example, the concept expressed in one Chinese character, 孝, would need several books to be translated sufficiently into English (and yet I would argue even further that one who did not grow up in a culture influenced by Confucianism can never truly understand what it means).

Going from English to Mandarin Chinese (or really any dialect), one would have similar trouble translating a simple concept like a palindrome, because such wordplay is literally impossible in Chinese. The translator would first have to explain how languages which use an alphabet, like English or French are arranged, and how certain phrases, when read backwards read the same as when read forwards. It would probably take a native Chinese speaker a few months to understand the concept, and maybe several years of speaking a language with an alphabet to actually appreciate the cleverness of such a concept. This is not meant to attack your analogy or anything, I just thought that I would comment that sometimes some things cannot be translated, in my experience (and I suspect that this is true in Christian theology as well).

 

[ESMDHokie77]

A wonderful posting designed to build bridges of understanding.

May such bridges grow and multiply until every difficulty is covered over and filled in and wiped from our hearts so that East and West, Catholic and Orthodox, become once again a single entity.

Let us become One as Christ and the Father are one…(John 17:21)

Peace
James

Amen!

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

The Papal legates, representatives of Pope Agatho, made no attempt to stop the burning of the letters, and subscribed to every anathema placed upon Honorius, as well as to the statement that Satan himself had used the bishop of Rome as a “tool for his will.”

Why did you quadruple post to get this point across?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I sincerely believe that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible, and not mutually exclusive.

I tend to think this as well, and among the vast, vast majority of Catholic and Orthodox internet posters, I feel like I’m in a minority that lean toward optimism.

It was not until I made a conscious and willful decision to study the Fathers on my own (the impetus was the removal of the phrase “leader of the Apostles” from the title of Sts. Peter and Paul in the Coptic Orthodox Liturgy

When did this change occur? And do you know where I can find before & after text of the two versions?

 

[dcointin]

Marduk,

I whole heartedly agree that if we’re interested in pursuing unity as Christ commands, then we first must understand each other, and not rely on distorted polemics. This is the primary reason I visit these forums, and it has helped me immensly in understanding the Catholic faith better and evaluating where our commonalities and differences lie. I thank you and several others from the Eastern Catholic forum in particular for this. I hope that the questions I ask aren’t taken as argumentative, and on the times that I’m less charitable that you forgive me.

I believe that Catholic/Orthodox dialogue has gone a very long way since it was first undertaken, which began in times before the schism occured. Take for example this expert from Photius’s “Encyclical to the Eastern Patriarchs” from 866:

“For the Bulgarians had not been baptised even two years when dishonourable men emerged out of the darkness (that is, the West), and poured down like hail or, better, charged like wild boars upon the newly-planted vineyard of the Lord, destroying it with hoof and tusk, which is to say, by their shameful lives and corrupted dogmas. For the papal missionaries and clergy wanted these Orthodox Christians to depart from the correct and pure dogmas of our irreproachable Faith.”

Thank God we don’t speak to one another like this any more!

 

[Marybeloved]

Thank God we don’t speak to one another like this any more!

Here, here!

 

[dcointin]

Most Catholics and Orthodox would also recognize that the differences between us are primarily of “differences of expression and emphasis”, to quote Eastern Catholic priest Fr. Thomas Loya. Each church, whether Roman, Constantinopolitan, Antochian, etc., received certain traditions of how things were practiced that were different but equally Christian. For example, from the earliest times there were different traditions regarding the dating of Pascha (Easter). It appears that St. John taught his disciples one way of calculating its celebration, while St. Peter taught his another. Both methods were equally apostolic but different ways of expressing Holy Tradition. Similarly, there were other differences between east and west that most now recognize need not divide us, such as leavened or unleavened bread in the eucharist, fasting practices, presbyteral celibacy, and many others (there were also differences within the east and west as well). There is also a growing recognition among scholars that many of the theological differences between us are also differences of emphasis and expression, and not of dogma. The one area in which there seems to be a consensus that our differences are of dogma is the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the Pope, and this is the area where modern dialogue is focusing. I would like to ask Marduk more questions on this specifically, but if another thread would be better suited for it I’ll ask it there.

 

[Mickey]

Most Catholics and Orthodox would also recognize that the differences between us are primarily of “differences of expression and emphasis”

I disagree. I believe the differences are real and substantial. These differences have not been resolved in 1000 years…and I expect they will not be resolved in another 1000 years.

 

[Marybeloved]

Most Catholics and Orthodox would also recognize that the differences between us are primarily of “differences of expression and emphasis”, to quote Eastern Catholic priest Fr. Thomas Loya. Each church, whether Roman, Constantinopolitan, Antochian, etc., received certain traditions of how things were practiced that were different but equally Christian. For example, from the earliest times there were different traditions regarding the dating of Pascha (Easter). It appears that St. John taught his disciples one way of calculating its celebration, while St. Peter taught his another. Both methods were equally apostolic but different ways of expressing Holy Tradition. Similarly, there were other differences between east and west that most now recognize need not divide us, such as leavened or unleavened bread in the eucharist, fasting practices, presbyteral celibacy, and many others (there were also differences within the east and west as well). There is also a growing recognition among scholars that many of the theological differences between us are also differences of emphasis and expression, and not of dogma. The one area in which there seems to be a consensus that our differences are of dogma is the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the Pope, and this is the area where modern dialogue is focusing. I would like to ask Marduk more questions on this specifically, but if another thread would be better suited for it I’ll ask it there.

I agree. I also think that virtually everything could be reconciled…except the Papacy. I’ve come to believe that only a miracle of The Holy Spirit like a new Pentecost can overcome this. In the meantime, we can continue our dialogue in truth and honesty and the realization that unity really is imperative. One day, God will do the impossible.

 

[Mickey]

One day, God will do the impossible.

Indeed. With God, all things are possible. It could happen next year…or it could happen at the end of time. Our ways are not God’s ways.

 

[dcointin]

I disagree. I believe the differences are real and substantial. These differences have not been resolved in 1000 years…and I expect they will not be resolved in another 1000 years.

Perhaps I should have instead wrote “many Orthodox scholars”. I realize that many Orthodox do hold much more hardline views than this. I personally believe that if you take most statements directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and compare those to Orthodox doctrine, they’re largely the same, e.g. purgatory. Would you disgree?

 

[Mickey]

I personally believe that if you take most statements directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and compare those to Orthodox doctrine, they’re largely the same, e.g. purgatory. Would you disagree?

It seems that many things were re-tooled from the days of Trent…to the Catechism. I think Papal infallibility/supremacy is a complete non-starter. Purgatory may be able to be hashed out in dialogue. The filioque and IC are somewhere in between.

But of course, I am not the one to ask. I am an anti-ecumenist. I believe that Rome needs to return to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[AnthonyJ]

What would Rome need to do to “return” in your view? I’ve seen some anti-ecumenist Orthodox state that the Pope and each one of the billion plus Catholics throughout the world would need to be re-baptized. Do you believe this or are you suggesting something else?

It seems that many things were re-tooled from the days of Trent…to the Catechism. I think Papal infallibility/supremacy is a complete non-starter. Purgatory may be able to be hashed out in dialogue. The filioque and IC are somewhere in between.

But of course, I am not the one to ask. I am an anti-ecumenist. I believe that Rome needs to return to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

But of course, I am not the one to ask. I am an anti-ecumenist. I believe that Rome needs to return to the fold of Holy Orthodoxy.

Anti Ecumenists or Orthodox ‘zealots’ ‘wall’ themselves off from any association with Roman Catholics and even mainstream Orthodoxy who are building bridges with the Catholics for the purpose of union

If you ‘wall’ yourselfs off from everybody and the Catholics how will relations improve,how will you have dialogue,how will bridges be built,will you be there to welcome the Catholics and meet them half way ,or is it such a ‘grave sin’ to even say one Our Father with a Catholic?

Everybody here prays that the ‘walls of seperation’ between the churches may be smashed down

but we know the zealot anti ecumenists 'wall ’ themselves off from everybody…

Should God smash down these walls? or do you expect the Catholics to come running to jump and hurdle over these walls to reach the Orthodox?

 

[arabic_catholic]

Thank you mardukm , I’ve too seen some false stuff about the Catholic Church on this excellent Coptic website too. st-takla.org/FAQ-Questions-VS-Answers/03-Questions-Related-to-Theology-and-Dogma__Al-Lahoot-Wal-3akeeda/045-Difference-between-Orthodox-and-Catholic.html

they even try to use the sexual abuses to justify why they are better !

yet , I do respect the EO and Oriental Orthodox as brothers in Christ

 

[Mickey]

Anti Ecumenists or Orthodox ‘zealots’ ‘wall’ themselves off from any association with Roman Catholics

Not true. As a traditionalist, I have many RC friends and family. I love them dearly. But that does not mean I have to accept the bits of doctrine that I see as innovation.

and even mainstream Orthodoxy who are building bridges with the Catholics for the purpose of union

There is discussion…but no preparation for union. Union will be by the grace of God…and I think it will take a very long time.

Everybody here prays that the ‘walls of seperation’ between the churches may be smashed down

That’s a good thing.

Should God smash down these walls?

Only God can do this.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

There is discussion…but no preparation for union…

well the East has adopted the Western gregorian calender and what about the many joint statements,and many Church services held in Rome ,France ,Constantinople with Bishops/clergy from Both Churches participating and praying with each other

this is more then discussion

even since the schism there was councils such as Florence ,lyons to help solve the schism

from what i know the sacking 4th crusade put a wedge between the Churches and broke relations and the muslims didnt want union between them also

i have seen alot of Orthodox still bitter and kind of like unforgiving about the fourth crusade
the Pope apologised a few years ago for it,so it seems its still may be in the minds of the Orthodox

pray for reconciliation,charity and forgiveness between the churches
Amen

 

[Mickey]

well the East has adopted the Western gregorian calender

No they haven’t. Some are on the Julian…and some are on the revised Julian.

this is more then discussion

It is merely discussion. There are a plethora of issues that need to be resolved.

even since the schism there was councils such as Florence ,lyons to help solve the schism

Florence was a travesty.

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us.

from what i know the sacking 4th crusade put a wedge between the Churches and broke relations

It goes much deeper than the sacking of Constantinople.

i have seen alot of Orthodox still bitter and kind of like unforgiving about the fourth crusade

Really? I don’t see much of that sort of thing.

 

[Paul_theApostle]

No they haven’t. Some are on the Julian…and some are on the revised Julian.
**
*sorry Revised Julian Cal. which still celebrates the feasts like christmas ,Dormition on the same day as the west,

is this more then discussion?***

It is merely discussion.

---

Is joint statements about church affairs and joint Church/prayer services just discussion?***

It goes much deeper than the sacking of Constantinople.
Really? I don’t see much of that sort of thing. *
**
Why would the Pope apologise in Greece for it then 500 years later if it wasnt a prob***?