The main source of the Immaculate Conception

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I should of called this thread something else like how to better explain Immaculate Conception to Catholics who are struggling.
redal said:
The pope is allowed, as the Vicar of Christ, to make such declarations as the Holy Spirit guides him to
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The Holy Spirit guides the church. But Catholics who question these dogmas have a lack of faith in the church. Countless wars, the inquisition, Vatican 2, the pedophile scandals, even our current Pope, none of these were guided by the Holy Spirit so there is skepticism.

For many people these are truths revealed by the Virgin Mary herself through divine revelations and are much more valuable than anything any human ever said.

All im saying is that these revelations are a good line of reasoning that can help fellow Catholics.
 
To claim that an official Council of the Church, Vatican II nor our current Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit is a very serious allegation. To like these things to sins of individual people is an uninformed opinion at best.
 
TheLittleLady said:
To claim that an official Council of the Church, Vatican II nor our current Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit is a very serious allegation. To like these things to sins of individual people is an uninformed opinion at best.
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How about the pedophile scandals or the inquisition, were they guided by the Holy Spirit?
 
Those are the sins of individual people, as I stated in my post.
 
Our sinful acts are not led by the Holy Spirit, however, the same person can confess those sins and return to friendship with God and be led by the Holy Spirit.
 
Yes I did. You said that there have been sinful acts within the church that weren’t led by the Holy Spirit. That’s basically what I was saying so we’re in agreement.
Can you then understand how faith in the church authority may come into question for some people?
 
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I recommend the book “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary, Unveiling the Mother of the Messiah” by Brant Pitre.
 
You said that there have been sinful acts within the church that weren’t led by the Holy Spirit.
That’s basically what I was saying so we’re in agreement.

Can you then understand how some people may be incredulous in regards to church authority?
Probably not. Most people can’t. It’s easier to ignore or deny such things.
 
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I think Pai_Nosso draws the conclusion that an act of a Pope to declare a dogma could be “faulty” just as an act of a Bishop to cover up incidents of child abuse is wrong.

The belief of Catholics is not that the Pope and Bishops can do no wrong, but rather the teaching authority of the Church does not lead the faithful astray.
 
‘The Nativity Story’ focuses on the period when Mary and Joseph journeyed to Bethlehem for the birth of Jesus. Adding layer to the human characters of Mary and Joseph, they are clearly shown as real people.
 
Ronaldjack said:
‘The Nativity Story’ focuses on the period when Mary and Joseph journeyed to Bethlehem for the birth of Jesus. Adding layer to the human characters of Mary and Joseph, they are clearly shown as real people.
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Um okay. Point noted i guess
 
Rau said:
The belief of Catholics is not that the Pope and Bishops can do no wrong, but rather the teaching authority of the Church does not lead the faithful astray.
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So your saying it’s the teachings that are guided by the Holy Spirit. That’s a more precise definition. It’s better than claiming the church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Anyway I presented the links between this dogma and the 2 apparitions which for me makes it the most credible of the Marian dogmas.
 
Hello @MasterHaster. That’s a question that puzzles me too.
My opening post explains how Marian apparitions that announced she was born without sin could have influenced this dogma.
The skeptical part of me has a theory that i won’t even mention cos people on this site will cry and i’ll get kicked off probs. But im interested in your take on this…

Why do you think it took that long to declare this a dogma besides it not being unanimous among bishops?
 
Wikipedia has some info regarding the history of the Church’s belief in the Immaculate Conception. It would be nice to read something more reliable than Wikipedia but that’s the most succinct article about it that I could find after a quick online search.
MasterHaster said:
I also wonder if not believing this particular dogma is an impediment to salvation especially since it was seemingly not a dogma for 1800 years
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Maybe it wasn’t an impediment (for Catholics) before it was infallibly defined. But now, (for Catholics) belief in the IC is tied to belief in the Church. So it would seem that if someone doubts the IC, they would also be doubting the authority of the Church, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church regarding its teachings on faith and morals.

I really don’t know how important any of this is for salvation. It doesn’t seem to have much of anything to do with the ‘love God and love neighbor’ commandments.
 
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Pai_Nosso said:
Can you then understand how faith in the church authority may come into question for some people?
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I know someone who will refuse to eat at a restaurant ever again if they mess up his order or are out of something on the menu, so, yes, I understand there are a small number of people who blame an institution for the sins of an individual within that institution. On the other hand, I do not think that way and know more people who are able to separate the failings of a person from the institution.
 
Pai_Nosso said:
Why do you think it took that long to declare this a dogma besides it not being unanimous among bishops?
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Per what I have learned from listening to Mr Jimmy Akin for many years, historically Dogmas are declared when there arises doubt in a doctrine.
 
TheLittleLady said:
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Pai_Nosso:
Why do you think it took that long to declare this a dogma besides it not being unanimous among bishops?
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Per what I have learned from listening to Mr Jimmy Akin for many years, historically Dogmas are declared when there arises doubt in a doctrine.
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Lets also not forget the length of time (and reasons) it took for the canon to be declared, the divinity of Jesus to be declared, and the theotokos to be declared.

Peace!!!
 
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