"The Main Things are the Plain Things" Biblical?

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EA_Man:
In a more eloquent way, perhaps, but not in a more logical way unfortunately.

How is the Church’s alleged infallibility “proven” by the historical reliability of the Bible?

It certainly follows that a church was founded. But from where is an independent attestation of the Church’s infalliblity introduced?

Additionally, this explanation of CA’s only makes my point for me (thank you); that “The Main Things Are The Plain Things”.

Your very own Catholic Answers instructions bear witness to the sufficiency of scripture read AS HISTORY to convince and convict the unbeliever as to their sinfulness and of the reality and validity of Jesus Christ’s Divinity.

Peace
I am sorry you are so confused E_A MAN. The Church’s infallibility and the divinity of Christ are matters of FAITH and NOT, as you assert, matters proven by historical record!

Any professional journalist can accurately report the winning score of a basketball game in a news article. Whether you believe the journalist’s report or not is a matter of your faith.

The purpose of the historical record is to show what Jesus did and what Jesus said. If you believe that the gospel of Matthew is a verified account of what actually happened, then you will see that Jesus truly claimed to be the Son of God, and that Jesus truly started ONE Church with a power to loose and bind. Whether you actually believe Jesus was being truthful when He made those statements is a matter of FAITH! Whether He actually made those statements is dependenent upon whether you believe the Gospel of Matthew is an ACCURATE reflection of History.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
 
Fiat,

Good points. God does not need to reveal history. He does need to show us how history reveals him. He leaved the problems of science for us to solve not to give us divine revelation. We get a perspective of science from the people of the time and how they understood it. For instance, it is said that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds. Well at that time that was the science they knew. Unless there was a different now extinct mustard seed back then, the mustard seed is not the smallest of all seeds. But the people of the time understood that it was. Christ could I suppose have said “well your wrong about the mustard seed so let’s get that fixed and make it the orchid” but what alot of added complexity. He was making a point of faith. He was not here to correct misunderstood science.

Blessings
 
Thessalonian:

Great thoughts! Many non-Catholic Christians back themselves into a corner with the sola scriptura argument, so they try to keep the focus on the Catholic Church herself, dictating to us what they think the Catholic Church teaches and what they think the Catholic Church’s history is.

Interestingly, they spend too much of their time trying to convince us Catholics that we are wrong as opposed to trying to convince us that they are right. They have to do this, though, because in their hearts (and heads) they realize that sola scriptura is simply an unraveled garment.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
 
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RyanL:
This is simply poor history. Perhaps you should try another link:
catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

Now - perhaps I misspoke a in my previous thread, or perhaps I was too vague. Certain parts of the Creation Account have been infallibly interpreted. The 6 24hr days has not been so interpreted, and so it is left up to us to read what we will. So, in that respect, the Creation Account has not been infallibly interpreted. To try and force an answer is to misunderstand Catholic teachings and Sacred Tradition.

The bible is inerrant in that in must be literally interpreted, or rather we must read the bible and apply what we know of the author’s literary intent. If it says “Raining Cats and Dogs”, we must read “Raining very hard”;. If it says the Sun goes around the Earth (as it appears to in certain passages), we must understand that it is written that way because it is the author’s observational perspective and he is relaying that perspective, and not unveiling a cosmic truth. The Sun indeed does *appear *to orbit the Earth, and would have to the early writers. It’s true that some in the time of Galileo didn’t understand this (and took the literalistic approach), but the Holy Spirit would not let the Church dogmatically define anything of the sort. If you read the link, you probably now have a little better grasp on the controversy.

Again, the Bible is not a science text, nor a text on natural history. The Bible is the revealing of God to His people, and He has ensured that revelation is inerrent in this regard. To try and force the Bible to give us a cure for cancer or explain what happened to the dinosaurs is to misuse the text - that’s not what it was made for. As far as I know, the position of the Church has always been this in regards to inerrancy. There were certainly some within the Church who disagreed (like the quote you gave), but it has never been a binding teaching.

RyanL
The CA article is poor history as it smacks of after the fact tinkering and rationalization.

Secondly, members of the Curia including the Cardinals judging Galilleo certainly INTERPRETED the Bible as confirming the Aristotelian view of Cosmology.

Thirdly, as a matter of historical FACT, Luther also condemned the view of Galileo. Which provides an interesting quandry; how is it that the body that claims SOLE INTERPRETIVE AUTHORITY of scripture can provide no better interpretation on that specific issue than that of a “heretic”? In fact, they could not even recognize that they had, according to you (or Current Church theology), NO BUSINESS even attempting to reach scientific conclusions based on scripture!

Fourth, the phenomenological argument of interpretation was the exact argument provided BY GALILEO at his defense.

He also warned:
“Take note, theologians, that in your desire to make matters of faith out of propositions relating to the fixity of sun and earth you run the risk of eventually having to condemn as heretics those who would declare the earth to stand still and the sun to change position–eventually, I say, at such a time as it might be physically or logically proved that the earth moves and the sun stands still” - he was made to recant his work, issue a lengthy confession of his “errors”, and was confined to house arrest for the remainder of his life.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to demure now that this was never “official Church teaching”. If it was never official teaching, then by what justification was Galileo made to recant? To confess ERROR? To have his work Prohibited from the reading by the Faithful?

That seems VERY OFFICIAL to me. I’m sure it was OFFICIAL both to Galileo and those that sentenced him.

Furthermore I noticed that you used the phrase:

The Bible is the revealing of God to His people, and He has ensured that revelation is inerrent in this regard.

I’ll ask the question again: If God has given the Bible to His people and He has ensured that the revelation is inerrant, why do we need a Magesterium to futher reveal God’s inerrant revealtion especially considering they have demonstrated that they cannot infallibly interpet ALL scripture and indeed in the Galileo Affair have shown that they cannot even recognize what they should not be interpreting?

Theologians call this the Problem of Revelational Insufficiency - the need for infallible revelation of God’s inerrant revelation calls into question either the need for the additional revelation or the quality of God’s revelation.

Peace
 
Dear E_A MAN:

The fundamental mistake you make regarding your “Galileo” argument is two-fold: first, you presume a limit to the uses of scripture. Your question was this:
By what reasoning could an assertion of scientific observation have been “contrary to scripture” if scripture according to Rome does not make inerrant claims about matters of scientific import
You’ve answered your own question. Because Rome does not make inerrant claims about matters of scientific import, Rome can mistakenly assert scientific observations. Readers of all ages, from all nationalities, from all creeds, and from all religions can see value in the Bible that extends beyond matters of faith. They may find archeological importance in scriptures and at the same time see absolutely no value to scriptures as a tool for faith. They may find artistic importance and literary importance in the Bible, while again seeing no practical value to their faith. Some readers may find scientific importance in scriptures. Etc.

The fact that there was a time and a group of people within the Church who used scriptures as a Scientific Textbook does not negate the fact that scriptures are also a textbook to our Faith. Nor does it negate the fact that the Church can and does infallibly interpret Scriptures as they relate to faith. Your logic is somewhat tortured on this E_A Man.

The second mistake you make is that you presume that a tribunal speaks infallibly for the Church. This may be a minor point, but is offensive to me. I welcome your attacks against Jesus’s Church, which is His Body. Christ promised us that this would happen. However, please make sure your attacks are grounded in a correct understanding of how the Church works.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
 
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EA_Man:
I’ll ask the question again: If God has given the Bible to His people and He has ensured that the revelation is inerrant, why do we need a Magesterium to futher reveal God’s inerrant revealtion especially considering they have demonstrated that they cannot infallibly interpet ALL scripture and indeed in the Galileo Affair have shown that they cannot even recognize what they should not be interpreting?

Theologians call this the Problem of Revelational Insufficiency - the need for infallible revelation of God’s inerrant revelation calls into question either the need for the additional revelation or the quality of God’s revelation.

Peace
E_A Man:
You seem intelligent enough to know that a Bible sitting on a shelf does no one any good. Instead, for the Bible to have any sort of meaning to anyone, it must be consumed in some way by us. If you would prefer that all of humankind receive this consumption from your lips, then I applaud your audacity.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
 
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EA_Man:
The CA article is poor history as it smacks of after the fact tinkering and rationalization… he was made to recant his work, issue a lengthy confession of his “errors”, and was confined to house arrest for the remainder of his life.
Do some more reading about this. Understand why he was placed under house arrest (hint: it wasn’t because of his science). You can claim whatever you would like, but without citations it is hard to give you credit. You have made the charge, the burden of proof is on you.
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EA_Man:
It is disingenuous in the extreme to demure now that this was never “official Church teaching”…That seems VERY OFFICIAL to me. I’m sure it was OFFICIAL both to Galileo and those that sentenced him.
Just because it “seems very official” to you does not make it so. There wasn’t an ecumenical council, there wasn’t an official proclaimation from the Chair of Peter, there was no binding decision made for all believers. It’s just that simple. The results of the trial are public record. Come back with citations and start a new thread.
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EA_Man:
…why do we need a Magesterium…

Theologians call this the Problem of Revelational Insufficiency - the need for infallible revelation of God’s inerrant revelation calls into question either the need for the additional revelation or the quality of God’s revelation.
The bible is inerrant in its revelation of God’s truths. This is Catholic dogma, and we must believe it. Your “Problem of Revelational Insufficiency” relies on an assumption that is simply not valid: if the bible cannot be plainly understood by the un-discipled (biblical term) it must be insufficient. This is an erronious assumption. The bible was not created to be read independent of the Church. You can provide no biblical basis for such an assumption, and in fact all evidence points to exactly the opposite assumption. Magisterium is required to ensure that we are *correctly *“discipled”, and in so being that we are able to correctly understand the revelation of God within the bible.

As then Cardinal Ratzinger said, “dogma is simply the infallible interpretation of the bible.” Magisterium is required to make sure you are reading/interpreting the bible correctly. If you think you can always be right about interpretation on your own, I suggest you buy yourself a pointy hat and start your own ‘church’; you have just made yourself pope!

From what I can tell, these are your errors:
  1. The bible was meant to be read independent of the Church. Any failure to be able to do so is to the detriment of the bible, and not to the believer.
  2. All scripture has been / needs to be infallibly interpreted by the Church. Catholics think *nothing *can be believed or interpreted without the Church having an official teaching on the matter.
  3. ***Any *"**seemingly" authoritative teaching is, in fact, authoritative and to be believed unquestioningly by all Catholics.
  4. The Apostles were incompetant and could not teach what they believed to anyone else. Anyone who learned from them is also incompetant, and cannot be trusted to accurately relay these teachings.
  5. Doctrine can’t develope. Any attempt to develope understanding of a divine truth is just “making stuff up”.
If I have missed any, I ask a faithful Catholic to correct the list.

EA_Man, you are a prize God and the Church want desparately to win. I hope you receive this with the loving intention with which it was written.

And Peace be with you,
RyanL
 
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Fiat:
The fundamental mistake you make regarding your “Galileo” argument is two-fold…
Fiat,

Great post! I really enjoy reading what you have to say! You are filled with the light of God and penetrating logic. I’m glad you’re on our side!

RyanL
 
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Fiat:
Dear E_A MAN:

The fundamental mistake you make regarding your “Galileo” argument is two-fold: first, you presume a limit to the uses of scripture. Your question was this:

You’ve answered your own question. Because Rome does not make inerrant claims about matters of scientific import, Rome can mistakenly assert scientific observations. Readers of all ages, from all nationalities, from all creeds, and from all religions can see value in the Bible that extends beyond matters of faith. They may find archeological importance in scriptures and at the same time see absolutely no value to scriptures as a tool for faith. They may find artistic importance and literary importance in the Bible, while again seeing no practical value to their faith. Some readers may find scientific importance in scriptures. Etc.

The fact that there was a time and a group of people within the Church who used scriptures as a Scientific Textbook does not negate the fact that scriptures are also a textbook to our Faith. Nor does it negate the fact that the Church can and does infallibly interpret Scriptures as they relate to faith. Your logic is somewhat tortured on this E_A Man.

The second mistake you make is that you presume that a tribunal speaks infallibly for the Church. This may be a minor point, but is offensive to me. I welcome your attacks against Jesus’s Church, which is His Body. Christ promised us that this would happen. However, please make sure your attacks are grounded in a correct understanding of how the Church works.

In Jesus and Mary
Fiat
You’re avoiding the issue.

So we’ll try this one step at a time.

How did Galileo’s work contradict scripture?

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
You’re avoiding the issue.

So we’ll try this one step at a time.

How did Galileo’s work contradict scripture?

Peace
As for avoiding the issue, I thought the issue was “the main things are the plain things.” For some reason, you are now drawing this discussion toward the Galileo episode. Is there a reason for this diversion?

What do you mean by “Galileo’s work”?

(Thank you for your patronizing tone. I guess it illustrates a child-like approach on my part and hubris on yours.)

In Jesus and Mary,
Fiat
 
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EA_Man:
I’ll include the preceding and following verses to provide some context.

2 Peter 3:15-17
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Peter is warning Believers to be on their guard against error from UNbelievers, not that they (Believers) can’t understand scripture.

It seems that Peter is acknowledging the fact his the readers of his letter read scripture. In fact he even acknowledges that Un-Believers do so.

Further, this seems like a logical place to tell Believers “just do what I tell or told you to do, don’t try to interpret scripture by yourself”. But Peter doesn’t do that. No anathemas against personal interpretation, just an exhortation to “be on your guard”.

“we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand”
2 Corinthians 1:13

Peace
EA,
Isn’t that a contradiction to what you said you believed earlier? After all, if an unbeliever cannot read and understand scipture for himself the your whole case goes logically right out the window, since that will mean that he can’t understand it well enough to come to God to begin with, which is patently not so.

Is there one voice that speaks for all n-Cs with authority as to what is correct interpretation of scripture? I have yet to hear it?

Your points on the insufficiency of scripture are well taken and I would also point out that if it were up to most of the Protestants/N-cs that I have encountered then we woud have no church history to begin with because they are so poorly read in it and generally want to argue from their doctrinal beginnings in 1517 or so, while ignoring the magisterially presserved documents of the early church that show that it was indeed Catholic in belief and practice. The issue is not the insufficiency of scripture. which is not a Catholic teaching at all, even by inference, but an insufficiency of understanding that is the result of the fact that until the printing press came along there were not mass copies of God’s word in all vernacular, and even then literacy was low. Hence then, if one cannot read at all then what hope is there for one to understand the scriptures and so come to be saved? You’ll find that even your own missionaries will tell you the same things about the countries that they go to where the literacy rate is very low. It does diddly good for one to be handed a copy of the Bible if one cannot read.

My point is that if reading the Bible itself is all sufficient then those who cannot read cannot be saved. (A fallacy)

Also and again this is one thing that I must decry, if there is no single voice of authority on Biblical intrepretation among n-Cs then the confussion and winds of doctrine just continue to blow all through them.

So far as the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition are concerned I would simply point out that since none of us have room in our homes to store all of the early church writings, or even time to read them, that God in His wisdom gave us a divinely appointed church to insure that these sources were not lost and that we have accurate and consistent understandings of all of that as well. It is within this total package of God’s Holy Spirit led church that we develop proper understanding of all that the Bible tells us,

As for Galileo…No where is it claimed that the Bible is meant to be scientifically accurate since none of it’s authors were scientists.

I would be more concerned with something more current and relevent to us all in that the magisteriun has remained the primary Christian voice of authority that decries the use of artificial birth control when every other Christian denom has made it a matter of conscience, in spite of all the historical writings to the contrary, even among the pagan philosophers .

I think the point made by a poster above who said essentially that the tiltle of this thread is fine right up until n-Cs are confronted with John 6 and other such passages. Then they start to backpeddle…
Pax vobiscum,
 
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Fiat:
As for avoiding the issue, I thought the issue was “the main things are the plain things.” For some reason, you are now drawing this discussion toward the Galileo episode. Is there a reason for this diversion?
The reason for this “diverson” is to demonstrate that the alleged teaching of the magesterium is as a practical matter no better than interpreting scripture for oneself.

In that vein I offer the Galileo “episode” which proves that not only did officials of the Church use the Bible to jusitfy their scientific conclusions but based on their faulty interpretation forced Galileo to confess ERROR where there was none.

I can confidently state that Galileo was NOT IN ERROR because as you have pointed out Rome denies that the Bible instructs with regard to issues of science.

The objection to this: that Rome did not “infallibly” teach an earth-centered view of the universe is really beside the point for two reasons:
  1. The dogma of infallibility cannot be an excuse here because of the Catholic tendency to anachronistically apply it using a thinly veiled tautology - the phrase ex cathedra was not invoked. This handy apoletic loophole has been attempted with regard to Honorius, Liberius, indulgences, etc…the phrase abracadabra was not used either - why? Because the Curia, in Galileo’s day, had no knowledge of it.
  2. Rome viewed as its perogative the condemnation of heresy. It found Galileo “strongly supected of heresy”.
How can one be a heretic, guilty of heresy, or even “vehemently suspeced of heresy” unless one violates a teaching(s) of the Church?

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines Heresy in part as this:
“The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church.”

Galileo was sentenced based, in whole, or in part, on his deviation from Church TEACHING.

Back around again. How could that be so if Rome did not teach on matters of science?

Those trying Galileo were certain of what they were trying him for:
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

“Therefore . . . , invoking the most holy name of our Lord Jesus Christ and of His Most Glorious Mother Mary, We pronounce this Our final sentence: We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo . . . have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world…also, that an opinion can be held and supported as probable, after it has been declared and finally decreed contrary to the Holy Scripture, and, consequently, that you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated in the sacred canons and other general and particular constituents against delinquents of this description.”

Again if it wasn’t part of the deposit of faith how could Galileo been considered heretical?

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
The reason for this “diverson” is to demonstrate that the alleged teaching of the magesterium is as a practical matter no better than interpreting scripture for oneself.
…and since you easily conclude that the magisterium does a disastrous job of interpreting scripture, then interpreting scripture for oneself is also, at minimum, disastrous. Not a real strong argument for your position!

more later…

Fiat
 
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EA_Man:
The dogma of infallibility cannot be an excuse here
Although three of the ten cardinals who judged Galileo refused to sign the verdict, his works were eventually condemned. Anti-Catholics often assert that his conviction and later rehabilitation somehow disproves the doctrine of papal infallibility, but this is not the case, for the pope never tried to make an infallible ruling concerning Galileo’s views.

The Church has never claimed ordinary tribunals, such as the one that judged Galileo, to be infallible. Church tribunals have disciplinary and juridical authority only; neither they nor their decisions are infallible.

No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo’s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo’s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo’s views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved.
Catholic Answers
 
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Mickey:
Although three of the ten cardinals who judged Galileo refused to sign the verdict, his works were eventually condemned. Anti-Catholics often assert that his conviction and later rehabilitation somehow disproves the doctrine of papal infallibility, but this is not the case, for the pope never tried to make an infallible ruling concerning Galileo’s views.

The Church has never claimed ordinary tribunals, such as the one that judged Galileo, to be infallible. Church tribunals have disciplinary and juridical authority only; neither they nor their decisions are infallible.

No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo’s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo’s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo’s views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved.
Catholic Answers
This does nothing to address my questions.

How can the Vatican decide that Galileo be tried for heresy unless they can contend that what he taught or believed contradicted church teaching?

It’s not a difficult question.

They accused Galileo of heresy. To be considered a heretic he had to hold or teach that which contradicted Church teaching - what was the belief(s) or teaching(s) that contradicted the church?

Peace
 
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EA_Man:
The reason for this “diverson” is to demonstrate that the alleged teaching of the magesterium is as a practical matter no better than interpreting scripture for oneself.

In that vein I offer the Galileo “episode” which proves that not only did officials of the Church use the Bible to jusitfy their scientific conclusions but based on their faulty interpretation forced Galileo to confess ERROR where there was none.

I can confidently state that Galileo was NOT IN ERROR because as you have pointed out Rome denies that the Bible instructs with regard to issues of science.

The objection to this: that Rome did not “infallibly” teach an earth-centered view of the universe is really beside the point for two reasons:
  1. The dogma of infallibility cannot be an excuse here because of the Catholic tendency to anachronistically apply it using a thinly veiled tautology - the phrase ex cathedra was not invoked. This handy apoletic loophole has been attempted with regard to Honorius, Liberius, indulgences, etc…the phrase abracadabra was not used either - why? Because the Curia, in Galileo’s day, had no knowledge of it.
  2. Rome viewed as its perogative the condemnation of heresy. It found Galileo “strongly supected of heresy”.
How can one be a heretic, guilty of heresy, or even “vehemently suspeced of heresy” unless one violates a teaching(s) of the Church?

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines Heresy in part as this:
“The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness–free choice–is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church.”

Galileo was sentenced based, in whole, or in part, on his deviation from Church TEACHING.

Back around again. How could that be so if Rome did not teach on matters of science?

Those trying Galileo were certain of what they were trying him for:
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

“Therefore . . . , invoking the most holy name of our Lord Jesus Christ and of His Most Glorious Mother Mary, We pronounce this Our final sentence: We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo . . . have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world…also, that an opinion can be held and supported as probable, after it has been declared and finally decreed contrary to the Holy Scripture, and, consequently, that you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated in the sacred canons and other general and particular constituents against delinquents of this description.”

Again if it wasn’t part of the deposit of faith how could Galileo been considered heretical?

Peace
E_A Man:
A second point to be made is that the magisterium of the Catholic Church was not involved here. The tribunal’s decision, whether correct or not, says nothing about the strengths or weaknesses of papal infallibility. In fact, the great harm in the Galileo episode is not that papal infallibility was invoked; rather, that it WAS NOT invoked!

You say that you can confidently state that Galileo was not in error. Do you realize that Galileo’s scientific conclusions ARE IN ERROR? The sun does move. Also, no one as of yet knows where the center of the universe is since no one knows where the boundaries of the universe are.

Fiat
 
Common guys we can go round in circles about Galeleo all week with revisionist history (perhaps on both sides). Getting back on topic, EA, is a 6 day 24 hour creation time-frame a main thing and plain thing such that if you do not explicitly believe it or see the 6 days as at all metaphorical, you will go to hell? If one believes in “guided evolution” (I do not though I lean away from 6 24 hour opinions as well) are they ignoring the “plain things” that are salvation critical or are they just engaging in in-house debate?
 
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Fiat:
E_A Man:
A second point to be made is that the magisterium of the Catholic Church was not involved here. The tribunal’s decision, whether correct or not, says nothing about the strengths or weaknesses of papal infallibility. In fact, the great harm in the Galileo episode is not that papal infallibility was invoked; rather, that it WAS NOT invoked!

You say that you can confidently state that Galileo was not in error. Do you realize that Galileo’s scientific conclusions ARE IN ERROR? The sun does move. Also, no one as of yet knows where the center of the universe is since no one knows where the boundaries of the universe are.

Fiat
I never said this issue was related to papal infallibility.

Galileo was tried because "having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world…also, that an opinion can be held and supported as probable, after it has been declared and finally decreed contrary to the Holy Scripture…"

So the reasons that Galileo was tried were twofold:
  1. He concluded in contradiction “to Holy Scripture” that the Earth went around the Sun.
  2. That you can still hold an opinion as probable after it has been decreed contrary to Scripture.
Now where would this group of Cardinals get the idea that the Sun traveled around the Earth?

Oh wait, it says right there in their pronouncement, doesn’t it - they said it was in Scripture.

Well, I’m no Catholic, so I’ll let you tell me, is it in Scripture?

Peace
 
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thessalonian:
Common guys we can go round in circles about Galeleo all week with revisionist history (perhaps on both sides). Getting back on topic, EA, is a 6 day 24 hour creation time-frame a main thing and plain thing such that if you do not explicitly believe it or see the 6 days as at all metaphorical, you will go to hell? If one believes in “guided evolution” (I do not though I lean away from 6 24 hour opinions as well) are they ignoring the “plain things” that are salvation critical or are they just engaging in in-house debate?
I consider this question an in-house debate. Informed believers occupy both sides of this debate. By the way, the debate centers on the meaning in context of the Hebrew word “yom” (transliterated). The two most common interpretations are it is either “an unspecified length of time” (i.e. epoch) or it means literal day. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides of this debate.

I do not believe in theistic evolution. If man is on a gradual, slow ascent, at what point did he “fall”?

Peace
 
Just so we know which scriptures point to the “stationary Earth” argument (i.e., which scriptures “plainly” show the “main thing” of geocentric theory):
Scriptural References Relevant to the Trial of Galileo
(King James Version of the Bible)
Joshua 10 (Verse 13):
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Psalm 19 (Verses 1-5)
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5** Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber**, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
Psalm 104 (Verses 1-5)
1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Isaiah 40 (Verse 22):
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;*** that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in***:
…emphasis added by the site…
 
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