The many years before original sin?

[catholic1seeks]

Of course, there are effects of original sin.

If the Earth was around for millions and millions of years before Adam and Eve, did no disease exist for those many years? Did no ANIMAL (or plant) die?

 

[Namesake]

Of course, there are effects of original sin.

If the Earth was around for millions and millions of years before Adam and Eve, did no disease exist for those many years? Did no ANIMAL (or plant) die?

The fossils show that lots of plants and animals died, and even went extinct. Presumably some died from disease. We know that bacteria existed and some were probably pathogenic, and probably some malignancies existed, and probably pathogenic viruses.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The fossils show that lots of plants and animals died, and even went extinct. Presumably some died from disease. We know that bacteria existed and some were probably pathogenic, and probably some malignancies existed, and probably pathogenic viruses.

But in what way does this relate to the doctrine of original sin? Through original sin, evil came into the world. This includes suffering. It doesn’t make sense to me if original sin caused suffering (e.g. disease), but there has been physical evil/suffering years before the first humans…

 

[Namesake]

In what way does this relate to the doctrine of original sin? Through original sin, evil came into the world. This includes suffering. It doesn’t make sense to me if original sin caused suffering (e.g. disease), but years before the years before the first humans there has been physical evil–suffering.

The question was asked and I answered it. That’s why my comment is relevant.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The question was asked and I answered it. That’s why my comment is relevant.

I know; I’m glad you answered. Your profile says
Religion: unsure

I mean not to offend.

I just left it opened for more people to answer: How is the concept of original sin able to coexist with the fact that suffering[of animals] and physical evil existed BEFORE the first humans.

 

[Namesake]

I know; I’m glad you answered. Your profile says
Religion: unsure

I mean not to offend.

I just left it opened for more people to answer: How is the concept of original sin able to coexist with the fact of suffering[of animals] and physical evil BEFORE the first humans.

I have no idea. I was just giving the biological facts.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I have no idea. I was just giving the biological facts.

And I’m thankful.

Genuine fact cannot contradict God’s revelation.



This one fact happens to be a stumbling block for what knowledge I have of original sin.
…so anyone who knows anything, post what ya know!

 

[teachccd]

If there was no death prior to the fall, then how would have Adam and Eve known about the death that God promised if they ate of the forbidden fruit? The serpent said, “Surely you will not die”. How could they have understood this if they had not witnessed death in the animals and plants? Death entered into humanity after the fall which was not the original intent of God for us. We chose death but through Christ have eternal life.The plants and animals still die with no hope of eternal life. this was a divine gift for humanity…teachccd

 

[catholic1seeks]

If there was no death prior to the fall, then how would have Adam and Eve known about the death that God promised if they ate of the forbidden fruit? The serpent said, “Surely you will not die”. How could they have understood this if they had not witnessed death in the animals and plants? Death entered into humanity after the fall which was not the original intent of God for us. We chose death but through Christ have eternal life.The plants and animals still die with no hope of eternal life. this was a divine gift for humanity…teachccd

Thanks for the clarity. I should have known that. But I thought physical evil(or evil at all) didn’t exist until Adam and Eve’s sin. Corruption of any degree was caused by Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were in Eden, a paradise. There was no suffering. Right?

So if Adam and Eve didn’t sin, disease would still be “allowed” to infest the crops and corrupt any non-living human thing?

 

[ateista]

Thanks for the clarity. I should have known that. But I thought physical evil(or evil at all) didn’t exist until Adam and Eve’s sin. Corruption of any degree was caused by Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve were in Eden, a paradise. There was no suffering. Right?

So if Adam and Eve didn’t sin, disease would still be “allowed” to infest the crops and corrupt any non-living human thing?

You are on the right track. Just follow it to the logical conclusion. Obviously the legend of the Garden cannot be taken at face value. It is just an ancient superstition. The so-called “fall” is another one. Start from here. Good luck!

 

[Namesake]

So if Adam and Eve didn’t sin, disease would still be “allowed” to infest the crops and corrupt any non-living human thing?

How can disease corrupt non living things? What’s a non living human thing?

 

[ateista]

How can disease corrupt non living things? What’s a non living human thing?

I am pretty sure it was just a typo. Probably he meant “living non-human” beings.

 

[davidv]

I believe that underlying this question is a false assumption that pain and suffering are evil. As I understand it, the Church teaches that evil is the absence of good. The ultimate good being God. Where God is fully present there can be no evil. To me the “death” that entered with the commision of the original sin was primarily that of a spiritual death. I find that it is highly plausible that the biological cycle of birth, life and death to be compatible with the absence of original sin.

 

[Nickkname]

Of course, there are effects of original sin.

If the Earth was around for millions and millions of years before Adam and Eve, did no disease exist for those many years? Did no ANIMAL (or plant) die?

God only made humans immortal and free of disease. But we lost this because of Original Sin.

However, because of Christ’s work of redemption, we now have true immortality and perfection: Jesus Christ and entry into Heaven.

Out of evil, God has brought forth a greater good, that is, a good greater than the evil itself and a good greater than that good which we would have had if there had been no evil in the first place.

 

[anon79686166]

Of course, there are effects of original sin.

If the Earth was around for millions and millions of years before Adam and Eve, did no disease exist for those many years? Did no ANIMAL (or plant) die?

Have you read “Communion and Stewardship” by the Vatican? Or the document about polygenism on the EWTN library web site? You can do a Google search for both. Your answers are there.

In recent years, pronouncements from on high have inclined more and more toward an acceptable view there may have been an original population of homo sapiens - not just two people. This is confirmed by studies in genetics and anthropology, so there is no discrepancy.

Of course, Catholics are still free to believe that Adam and Eve were literal people as well but unless you are willing to do some serious mental suspension of the increasing data, that may be increasingly more difficult.

Certainly the universe was created in a state of journeying, from the less perfect to the more pefect. Natural evil, as opposed to moral evil that came in with original sin, was a part of this plan.

Your answers are also fully listed at the Catholic Church and Evolution article on Wikipedia Hope that helps!!

 

[JDaniel]

My response may be nothing more than the meanderings of someone who has forgotten much. It seems to me that somewhere, years ago, I was taight that Adam and Eve were created in perfection. And, that they were infused with most, if not all, of the knowledge and attributes that were possessed by the Angels. They would, therefore, have had a concept of “death.” So, actually seeing something “die” would not have to have been a precursor to understanding what “death” was.

Being a simple, imperfect being myself, I don’t remember ever seeing, or reading, anything about plants and animals being susceptible to death and disease prior to the Fall.

Adam was warned not to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam did not understand what death meant, he should have asked!

After the fall, Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from the Tree of Life. Thus, imperfections were introduced into the world and universe, including restricted knowledge, death, disease, original sin, and so forth.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi RMichelucc,

Have you read “Communion and Stewardship” by the Vatican?

Could you point out what part of the document you are referring to?

Or the document about polygenism on the EWTN library web site?

Could you point out which document, and what portion?

In recent years, pronouncements from on high have inclined more and more toward an acceptable view there may have been an original population of homo sapiens - not just two people.

Could you cite some examples?

This is confirmed by studies in genetics and anthropology, so there is no discrepancy.

Could you direct us to those studies?

Thanks!
VC

 

[anon79686166]

Hi RMichelucc,

Could you point out what part of the document you are referring to? Could you point out which document, and what portion? Could you cite some examples?

Every individual human being as well as the whole human community are created in the image of God. In its original unity – of which Adam is the symbol – the human race is made in the image of the divine Trinity.

According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the ‘Big Bang’ and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5 - 4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.[10]

While the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a humanoid population of common genetic lineage. However it is to be explained, the decisive factor in human origins was a continually increasing brain size, culminating in that of homo sapiens.

SOURCE: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

The EWTN document is here: ewtn.com/library/Theology/SINEVOL.HTM

Could you direct us to those studies?

bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/human_evolution/new_batch1.shtml

This is not propaganda. It’s science.

Hope that helps!!

Thanks!
VC

 

[catholic1seeks]

**As I have known it to be, we MUST believe we all are descendants of ADAM. The Church’s teaching on original sin causes an emphasis on a literal ADAM. **

Also, getting back to the main idea, was not ALL evil caused by original sin?

**And yet we have physical evil–disease–before the fall of men. Unless someone can explain to me how disease isn’t evil, I will remain confused.

Some of the posts imply that the only evil that was brought by Adam’s sin was the evil that would affect the human. **

I just found this:
(from New Advent)

Thus it has often been supposed that animal suffering, together with many of the imperfections of inanimate nature, was due to the fall of man, with whose welfare, as the chief part of creation, were bound up the fortunes of the rest (see Theoph. Antioch., Ad Autolyc., II; cf. Genesis 3 and 1 Corinthians 9). The opposite view is taken by St. Thomas (I, Q. xcvi, a. 1,2). Descartes supposed that animals were merely machines, without sensation or consciousness; he was closely followed by Malebranche and Cartesians generally. Leibniz grants sensation to animals, but considers that mere sense-perception, unaccompanied by reflexion, cannot cause either pain or pleasure; in any case he holds the pain and pleasure of animals to be parable in degree to those resulting from reflex action in man (see also Maher, Psychology, Supp’t. A, London, 1903).

How COULD the fall of man cause animal suffering and plant “suffering” when disease and such existed BEFORE!!!?? So now I am getting the idea that it didn’t cause it.
:ehh: Why does it have to be so hard. Maybe I really should just offer it all up!

 

[catholic1seeks]

Does anyone know a good answer???

Or can anyone direct me to a good article?