The many years before original sin?

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catholic1seeks said:
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And yet we have physical evil–disease–before the fall of men. Unless someone can explain to me how disease isn’t evil, I will remain confused.
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Disease isn’t evil, it just *is. Disease is just a physical process within relatively understandable mechanisms for the most part. The natural world doesn’t include the concept of evil. Spiritually you can characterize disease how ever you choose, but from a natural perspective disease is not good or bad, it just is.

I suppose that is why some people dislike science. Science is dispassionate/emotionless, and we humans are emotional, even passionate about stuff. But science must remain dispassionate,(objective), to be good science.

Scientists can be emotional, but they must control that when they do science. An example is Albert Einstein when he couldn’t get equations to make sense in his quest for a unified field theory. He was angry, depressed, and sometimes felt inadequate to do the job. But he maintained objective integrity enough to reject his own calculations when he saw that they were not correct. That is what I mean when I say that science is dispassionate.
 
Namesake said:
Disease isn’t evil, it just *is. Disease is just a physical process within relatively understandable mechanisms for the most part. The natural world doesn’t include the concept of evil.
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**
There is something called physical evil. An example: suffering. Physical evil consists of disease. Right?**
 
catholic1seeks said:
**
There is something called physical** evil. An example: suffering. Physical evil consists of disease. Right?
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Not from a scientific point of view. From a spiritual point of view there is evil, but from an objective, scientific point of view there is no such thing as evil. There is no such thing as good either. There is only the physical scientific fact.

We as people ascribe emotional characteristics such as evil or good. Science does not. So from a scientific point of view disease isn’t good or bad. It just is.

Like I said, that is why some people dislike science. It is not emotional or spiritual in any way. Science can be *viewed from an emotional/spiritual perspective, but science itself must maintain an objective viewpoint to be good science.
 
RMichelucc said:
In recent years, pronouncements from on high have inclined more and more toward an acceptable view there may have been an original population of homo sapiens - not just two people. This is confirmed by studies in genetics and anthropology, so there is no discrepancy.

Of course, Catholics are still free to believe that Adam and Eve were literal people as well but unless you are willing to do some serious mental suspension of the increasing data, that may be increasingly more difficult.
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Catholics MUST believe in a literal Adam and Eve. I don’t know what “pronouncements from on high” you’re referring to, but that’s certainly not in line with the declared position of the Vatican. Adam and Eve themselves may have come from an original population of homo sapiens, but that’s a completely different question.
catholic1seeks said:
Do we have a good conclusion?🙂
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…I don’t really understand the difficulty, actually.

Before Adam and Eve:
Plants grow, reproduce, and die.
Animals grow, reproduce, “suffer”, and die.

Adam and Eve, before the Fall:
Are given the gifts of freedom from death and suffering.
Higher than the rest of creation, clearly more noble creatures.

Adam and Eve, after the Fall:
Lose their special gifts as a result of sin. No longer elevated as above the rest of creation, they become subject to death and suffering, just like everything else.

There’s no particular problem with having death, suffering, and other such “physical evils” before the Fall – because in a certain sense, they’re not really “evil”. Plants and animals were created to grow/reproduce and eventually die – man was not. That’s why death and suffering are “evils” for men, in a way that they are not for the rest of creation.
 
masterjedi747 said:
Catholics MUST believe in a literal Adam and Eve. I don’t know what “pronouncements from on high” you’re referring to, but that’s certainly not in line with the declared position of the Vatican. Adam and Eve themselves may have come from an original population of homo sapiens, but that’s a completely different question…I don’t really understand the difficulty, actually.Before Adam and Eve:Plants grow, reproduce, and die.Animals grow, reproduce, “suffer”, and die.Adam and Eve, before the Fall:Are given the gifts of freedom from death and suffering.Higher than the rest of creation, clearly more noble creatures.Adam and Eve, after the Fall:Lose their special gifts as a result of sin. No longer elevated as above the rest of creation, they become subject to death and suffering, just like everything else.There’s no particular problem with having death, suffering, and other such “physical evils” before the Fall – because in a certain sense, they’re not really “evil”. Plants and animals were created to grow/reproduce and eventually die – man was not. That’s why death and suffering are “evils” for men, in a way that they are not for the rest of creation.
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Thank you very much masterjedi! That was the perfect post! I think the question’s settled!Well expressed! 👍
 
That was an interesting question and one I’d never thought about before but it has got me thinking as to the state of things before the fall.
Didn’t God say to Adam that he could eat of all the plants except the forbidden one. therefore in the act of eating any fruit or plant must surely result in the killing of living material.
It could be that all living things having been put under the dominion of man, found their true fulfillmentin in the service of man and were willing part-takers to this service ( so to speak ) and may have been honoured ( again so to speak ) being absorbed into Man. Rather than this causing suffering for all we know it may have resulted in the opposite.
As for death being present before the creation of Man, maybe the dating system being used to determine what length this period was could well be flawed as many scientists now suspect.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Does anyone know a good answer???

Or can anyone direct me to a good article?
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I gave you an answer. To repeat:

God only made humans immortal and free of disease. But we lost this because of Original Sin.

MY SOURCE OF INFORMATION:

Original Sin
Question from on 10-22-2007:

Dr. Geraghty,

I am currently reading Augustine in my Philosophy of Religion class, and am having difficulty with the notion of original sin. I understand how it could be a convincing Theodicy in his time, but am wondering how one would defend it in light of what we now know about the history of our planet. If we look at dinosaurs, for example, they were already living in a world of disease, carnivores, and natural disasters - long before the first man could have sinned. How do we interpret the doctrine of Original Sin in light of this?

Thanks, David
Answer by Richard Geraghty on 10-23-2007:

Dear David,

Let us assume for the sake of argument that the dinosaurs existed long before the first human pair, Adam and Eve. I assume that they were grass eaters and carnivores, that other kinds of animals lived and died. I make no assumption that the equivalent of lions and sheep lay down with each other eating grass. No. Lions still ate sheep. Now when Adam and Eve first appeared in the Garden of Eden, they had the special gift of immortality, unlike the other animals. They could not suffer and die because of God’s gift. But when they sinned, they lost the gift of being free of death and suffering. The other animals never had these gifts.

Dr. Geraghty

Source: ewtn.com/vexperts/showres…DESC&start_at=

THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (BOLD IS MY EMPHASIS):

IV. MAN IN PARADISE

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. **As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.**252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

250 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1511.

251 Cf. LG 2.

252 Cf. ⇒ Gen 2:17; ⇒ 3:16, ⇒ 19.

253 Cf. ⇒ Gen 2:25.

Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1B.HTM
 
Nickkname said:
I gave you an answer. To repeat:God only made humans immortal and free of disease. But we lost this because of Original Sin.**MY SOURCE OF INFORMATION:**Original SinQuestion from on 10-22-2007:Dr. Geraghty,I am currently reading Augustine in my Philosophy of Religion class, and am having difficulty with the notion of original sin. I understand how it could be a convincing Theodicy in his time, but am wondering how one would defend it in light of what we now know about the history of our planet. If we look at dinosaurs, for example, they were already living in a world of disease, carnivores, and natural disasters - long before the first man could have sinned. How do we interpret the doctrine of Original Sin in light of this?Thanks, David ----------------------------------Answer by Richard Geraghty on 10-23-2007: Dear David,Let us assume for the sake of argument that the dinosaurs existed long before the first human pair, Adam and Eve. I assume that they were grass eaters and carnivores, that other kinds of animals lived and died. I make no assumption that the equivalent of lions and sheep lay down with each other eating grass. No. Lions still ate sheep. Now when Adam and Eve first appeared in the Garden of Eden, they had the special gift of immortality, unlike the other animals. They could not suffer and die because of God’s gift. But when they sinned, they lost the gift of being free of death and suffering. The other animals never had these gifts.Dr. Geraghty Source: ewtn.com/vexperts/showres…DESC&start_at=**THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (BOLD IS MY EMPHASIS):**IV. MAN IN PARADISE374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. **As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.**252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.250 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1511.251 Cf. LG 2.252 Cf. ⇒ Gen 2:17; ⇒ 3:16, ⇒ 19.253 Cf. ⇒ Gen 2:25.Source: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1B.HTM
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THANK YOU!!
 
I’ve always thought the effect of the fall of man is pretty clearly written in the human psyche, and that this is the most important part of Genisis.

The fact that other animals existed and acted like, well… animals demonstrates that the chronology of teh story can’t be taken literally.

OTOH, if Adam and Eve were IN the garden, then at least some of the physical universe was OUTSIDE the garden-- perhaps that’s important…
 
The answer is: mankind was created by God with special grace that enabled him to never die.

“Man is the only creature that God wanted for Himself.” -JP2

Animals and plants are purposed to die as man eats them.
It is because of man’s wickedness and loss of that grace that death for man now enters the world.
 
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