The Mark of the Beast

[ryanoneil]

Jesus has fulfilled all of God’s earlier covenant promises - He is the new Adam, bringing about a new creation, restoring humankind to the paradise promised in the beginning. He is the new Noah, bringing about a flood that saves, the waters of Baptism. He is the new son of Abraham, in whom all the nations of the world will find blessing. He is the new Moses, giving God’s chosen people a new Passover, the Eucharist, and leading a new exodus, a deliverance from sin, by His Cross and Resurrection opening up the promised land of heaven. And He is the new David and of His is the restored Kingdom.

Zechariah 14:16 All who are left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall come up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of Booths.
17
If any of the families of the earth does not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, no rain shall fall upon them.
18
And if the family of Egypt does not come up, or enter, upon them shall fall the plague which the LORD will inflict upon all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the feast of Booths.
19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the feast of Booths.
20
On that day there shall be upon the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” The pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the libation bowls before the altar.
21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who come to sacrifice shall take them and cook in them. On that day there shall no longer be any merchant in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

[Protestant101]

Isaiah 8:20 speaks about the Law, which is the Torah, and the Testimony, which are the Prophets or the rest of the Tanach. If any claimant of the truth does not speak according to that light, it’s because there is no light in him or her. Clear now?

Regarding Isaiah 53, the Prophet is referring to the Suffering Servant, who is the Messiah. Then, so that no one needs to assume that he was Jesus, he mentions that Servant by name in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. And the name is not Jesus but Israel. Now, you have the answer to your question. The reference is to Israel, the Jewish People.

Regarding Jesus, you are right, he was only a Jew. A religious Jewish Rabbi. He could not be God because in Judaism there is no such a thing as Greek Mythology**.**

Well who is this mysterious “Suffering Servant” if it is not Jesus? If you are equating “Israel” with “The Suffering Servant;” then that means you believe “Israel” as in the nation of Israel, (not Jesus) to be the object of focus in Isaiah 53? Am I correct in reading you that way?

And just to be clear on Isaiah 8:20; just because you quote it to someone; it does not follow that it must be true that that person is not speaking according to “the law” and the “testimony.”

“The mark of the beast” is the opposite of the mark of Jesus. Each has their own seal of authority - their “mark.” Jesus left us with His seal of His authority in Isa 53. It is very unfortunate, to me, that anyone could believe that Isa 53 is not referring to Jesus. But I will wait for you to clarify my question first, before I continue.

May God “bless you; and keep you; and make His face to shine upon you…”

 

[Lapell]

According to Matthew 5:17, Jesus declared that he had not come to abolish the Jewish laws. Then, 30 years later, Paul came and said that what Jesus said was not true, but rather that the Jewish laws were abolished on the cross. (Ephe. 2:15)

As we can see, Paul stood against what Jesus said by contradicting his words about his purpose regarding the Jewish laws. If Jesus was indeed Christ, as Christians believe he was, it’s only obvious that Paul acted as the Antichrist.

Now, where did Paul say the Jewish laws were abolished? On the cross. And what did the cross mean to him? “God forbid,” he said, “that I should glory in anything save in the cross.” The cross meant the glory of Paul. (Gal. 6:14):

I am afraid you are playing with words, Ben, and in a very wrong way. Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish the Law (Torah), true… but don’t skip the rest of his sentence: " but to accomplish it"…
And to appreciate what he meant by “accomplishing it”, you must take into account not just a few verses, but the whole of the four Gospels, of the Acts of the Apostles, and the rest of the New Testament, including the mysterious book of the Apocalypse. Right now you are picking and choosing, and in proper Biblical interpretation it’s rather incomplete and make your opinion, well, no less incomplete and thus greatly misinformed!
Many Jews were actually shocked and unwelcoming to Jesus’ way of “accomplishing” (or “fulfilling” if you prefer) the Law and to refer to himself as “I AM”.

 

[Lapell]

May the Lord God have mercy on you and show the real Truth which you are actually fighting against very hard, like Saul of Tarse did before the resurrected Jesus Himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus aqnd asked Him: “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” Shalom lekha, Ben Masada!

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ve never said anything about replacement. The Abrahamic covenant both precedes and supercedes the Mosaic covenant that came after it. The New Covenant supercedes it as well. When the moral law is written on the heart, the bulk of the sacrificial and ceremonial rites end because they were there for a stiff-necked rebelious people. The Mosaic covenant involved a mediator and more than one party was responsible for fulfilling the terms of the covenant- God and Israel. The Abrahamic covenant was a unilateral arrangement where God alone swore an oath and assumed responsibility of blessing the world through Abraham’s offsping.

With the Davidic covenant, the Kingdom is an international empire stretching to the ends of the earth and embracing all nations and peoples. This is not replacement it is inclusion. You probably don’t agree, but this verse ultimately speaks to all people and not just diaspora Jews.

A psalm of the Korahites. A song. The LORD loves the city founded on holy mountains, Loves the gates of Zion more than any dwelling in Jacob. Glorious things are said of you, O city of God! Selah From Babylon and Egypt I count those who acknowledge the LORD. Philistia, Ethiopia, Tyre, of them it can be said: “This one was born there.” But of Zion it must be said: “They all were born here.” The Most High confirms this; the Lord notes in the register of the peoples: “This one was born here.” Selah So all sing in their festive dance: “Within you is my true home.” (Psalm 87)

I didn’t say you mentioned the words, Replacement Theology, but you promote it. Even to refer to the Tanach as “Old Testament” is an expresssion that implies Replacement Theology. You imply that by being our Scriptures an Old Testament, it must be discarded and replaced by a New one. This is Replacement Theology. Therefore, Antisemitism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

May the Lord God have mercy on you and show the real Truth which you are actually fighting against very hard, like Saul of Tarse did before the resurrected Jesus Himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus aqnd asked Him: “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” Shalom lekha, Ben Masada!

You are totally mistaken about my mission. Far from me to persecute Jesus. On the contrary, I am here to defend his Faith which was Judaism. If the dead could know anything that goes on up here, Jesus would turn in his grave to see how Christians temper with Judaism by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I am afraid you are playing with words, Ben, and in a very wrong way. Jesus said he didn’t come to abolish the Law (Torah), true… but don’t skip the rest of his sentence: " but to accomplish it"…

Oh! That’s really interesting. I cannot skip the rest of his sentence, but you can. Why do you skip verse 19? He says in there that, as he did, we all must do the same: To observe and teach without any change even down to the dot of the letter. And that even if the heaven and earth pass away, nothing of the Law shall pass till all of us are found observing all the commandments.
.

 

[Lapell]

Oh! That’s really interesting. I cannot skip the rest of his sentence, but you can. Why do you skip verse 19? He says in there that, as he did, we all must do the same: To observe and teach without any change even down to the dot of the letter. And that even if the heaven and earth pass away, nothing of the Law shall pass till all of us are found observing all the commandments.
.

Is it the wording, Ben? What He said was that nothing of the Law shall till all things are accomplished. It may sound alike to you, Ben, but it is slightly different. And do not forget the last words Jesus uttered from the cross in the Gospel according to John: “All is accomplished.” True or false? Accomplished. Not abolished indeed.
Shalom!

 

[Lapell]

You are totally mistaken about my mission. Far from me to persecute Jesus. On the contrary, I am here to defend his Faith which was Judaism. If the dead could know anything that goes on up here, Jesus would turn in his grave to see how Christians temper with Judaism by inserting Hellenistic innovations into it.

Then why do you twist the meaning of the verses like you have been doing up to now? Give glory to God! Which means: “Speak the truth!” (like the formed blind man from birth was asked by the people who talked to him.)

 

[Lapell]

May the Lord God have mercy on you, Ben Masada!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Well who is this mysterious “Suffering Servant” if it is not Jesus? If you are equating “Israel” with “The Suffering Servant;” then that means you believe “Israel” as in the nation of Israel, (not Jesus) to be the object of focus in Isaiah 53? Am I correct in reading you that way?

 

[ryanoneil]

I didn’t say you mentioned the words, Replacement Theology, but you promote it. Even to refer to the Tanach as “Old Testament” is an expresssion that implies Replacement Theology. You imply that by being our Scriptures an Old Testament, it must be discarded and replaced by a New one. This is Replacement Theology. Therefore, Antisemitism.

I imply no such thing because it is impossible to discard the word of God. God’s word is fulfilled, not discarded. So please don’t assume to tell me what I’m saying. “Tesament” is just another word for covenant.

Is it replacement theology to split history into ages? If I was offended I’d point the finger right back at you. Your own tradition speaks of a Messianic age that ends the time of the Law in the last days.

Do you think those days have arrived?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Is it the wording, Ben? What He said was that nothing of the Law shall till all things are accomplished. It may sound alike to you, Ben, but it is slightly different. And do not forget the last words Jesus uttered from the cross in the Gospel according to John: “All is accomplished.” True or false? Accomplished. Not abolished indeed.
Shalom!

And why do you have to add an extra meaning to Jesus words on the cross? When he said, “It’s finished,” what makes you think that he meant the Law? Everyone can see that you are immitating the Pauline policy to get rid of the Law. Jesus meant the end of his life; not the end of the Law. He would not contradict himself so blatantly. What you are doing is not good for someone who can think.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Well, my friend, if you are getting offended, you have a choice to either erase History, or stop proclaiming that the Church is a paragon of peace and love. This is no chip on the shoulder. This is a deterrant against claims that the Jews never suffered in the hands of the Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m convinced that the Mark of the Beast will be somehow related to Oprah Winfrey. Perhaps it will be a tattoo of her face or Dr. Oz’s? It will definitely be Oprah-related. She’s the beast!

 

[Ben_Masada]

I imply no such thing because it is impossible to discard the word of God. God’s word is fulfilled, not discarded. So please don’t assume to tell me what I’m saying. “Tesament” is just another word for covenant.

Is it replacement theology to split history into ages? If I was offended I’d point the finger right back at you. Your own tradition speaks of a Messianic age that ends the time of the Law in the last days.

Do you think those days have arrived?

**I agree with you that’s impossible to discard the Word of God. So, when Isaiah identifies Israel with the Suffering Servant, I hope you won’t discard it.

When Jesus fulfilled the Law, I am glad to know that it was not discarded. As he said himself in Matthew 5:19, we all have to do the same.

I also agree with you that Testament is just another word for Covenant. So, I don’t want to hear anymore about Old Testament, because this implies the existence of a New Testament, and our Scriptures is not an Old Testament.

Judaism does not speak of the end of the Law. I am sure you did not understand what you read. There is no end to the Law. Why don’t you read Psalm 119? I am sure you will change your mind **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Then why do you twist the meaning of the verses like you have been doing up to now? Give glory to God! Which means: “Speak the truth!” (like the formed blind man from birth was asked by the people who talked to him.)

You are the one twisting the meaning of the only Scriptures that Jesus used to read. Everything I say here I give you a quotation to check it out. If you don’t, it’s because you must be afraid to find out I am right. You guys are not interested in the truth, as long as the Church tells you what the truth is. Your mind is the mind of the Church. You don’t have a mind of your own. I am sorry. I don’t mean any offense. But it’s high time you start thinking for yourselves.

 

[minkymurph]

Very good! Let us start with the misnomer, Old Testament. There is no such a thing as Old Testament. This is an item from the antisemitic agenda of Paul in Galatians 4:21-31, which means Replacement Theology. The name is Tanach or Hebrew Scriptures.

Yes of course, I remember being told that in one my lectures.

**Good for you! Although it tells me you don’t have a missionary spirit. Why are you on religious studies? **

I’m actually in teacher training at a Catholic University in Belfast. At the University I attend we follow two religious studies programmes. One is called Religious Education which is the one that is orientated towards missionary activity and handing on faith and therefore requires belief in that faith. Everyone, irrespective of their main subject, participates in the RE programme. The other is Relgious Studies which is an objective study of the main world religions and does not require a person to be affliated with any particular denomination. My main subject is RS which is why I take both programmes. My other subject is History.

I believe I do have a missionary spirit. I would not be in teacher training as a religious educator if I did not. However I do not believe in forcing my views on anyone and I’ve always found contentious debates to be counterproductive and further instill hatred and division. I live in Northern Ireland and as you live in Israel and are Jewish, you can perhaps understand that and there is a difference between talking to someone and talking at them. A priest who taught me once said ‘you should leave your words between yourself and the person you are talking to and let them choose whether they pick your words up or not.’

 

[Protestant101]

I believe I do have a missionary spirit. I would not be in teacher training as a religious educator if I did not. However I do not believe in forcing my views on anyone and I’ve always found contentious debates to be counterproductive and further instill hatred and division. I live in Northern Ireland and as you live in Israel and are Jewish, you can perhaps understand that and there is a difference between talking to someone and talking at them. A priest who taught me once said ‘you should leave your words between yourself and the person you are talking to and let them choose whether they pick your words up or not.’

You make a good point - there is a difference between monologue, and dialogue.

 

[Nino]

ole utter nonsense,Jesus was born a Jew but died a Chriatian! Thats why His followers were stoned by the religious establishment…and never allowed to preach in the temples etc!.From the Passover plot,Last temptation of Jesus,DeVinci Code …etc etc the attack on Jesus continues un-abatted…also the organization…‘Jews for Jesus’ is hated by certain elements also…gee,using your theory,wonder why he asks…