Ben Masada;5028688:
**I expected you to know much better than that. We already know that Mark and Luke were Paul’s disciples. I am of the opinion that the other two who wrote Matthew and John were obviously his disciples too. Being Paul’s disciples, what are
we to expect, that they were not heavily influenced by Paul? I have not mentioned that before because I thought you guys were aware of this.
Ben:**
From a Christian perspective I am not confusing the two. I understand the initial fulfillment referred to Antiochus, but we believe Jesus when he said there would be a second fulfillment.
It is not antisemitic or false. It is what it is. And I absolutely agree it was forced at the threat of death. But, the fact of the matter is, that the Sanhedrin did it in order to survive (until the outlaw zealots made it impossible for them to continue).
The “times” is a reference to the Prophets who have always warned against paganism and idol worship.
**Oh, I have no doubt that Jesus as part of the Jewish People has been Divinely assigned as light to the whole world. However, he was a religious Jewish man. Therefore, anything not Jewish about him is not true, and serves only to reflect a bad image about his Faith, which was Judaism. That’s the whole issue about which we are having this discussion.
****Jesus himself never mentioned a word about a second fulfillment of Daniel 9. That in Matthew 24:30 was a very bad plagiarism of the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew, with the purpose to enhance the Christ of Paul. The real Jesus of Nazareth was a religious Jew, and what the gospel writer says about him is not Jewish. Therefore, not true.
**Ben,**Jesus himself never mentioned a word about a second fulfillment of Daniel 9. That in Matthew 24:30 was a very bad plagiarism of the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew, with the purpose to enhance the Christ of Paul. The real Jesus of Nazareth was a religious Jew, and what the gospel writer says about him is not Jewish. Therefore, not true.
Ben:
I assume you don’t believe Daniel mentions Jesus at all. Obviously, we disagree!**Jesus himself never mentioned a word about a second fulfillment of Daniel 9. That in Matthew 24:30 was a very bad plagiarism of the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew, with the purpose to enhance the Christ of Paul. The real Jesus of Nazareth was a religious Jew, and what the gospel writer says about him is not Jewish. Therefore, not true.
Ben:
**Jesus was a religious Jew. Therefore, anything not Jewish about Jesus is not true. That’s my historical reference. If you want me to call the quits, drop the claim that you are talking about a man called Jesus, who was a religious Jew.
**I know this is kinda late, but…**Well, at least I made you feel nostalgic, and perhaps younger. And maybe, you won’t do it again, because you must have detected that I am not here to win Catholics away, but to claim Jesus as one of our own, which is exactly what he was: A Jew and not a Christian.
Ben:**
cthulhubryan;5029236:
Wow Ben, if we are going to just make up “facts” then we can make this debate really interesting. You forget about the “fact” that Enoch came back to earth to tell Moshe Dyan to make certain that there were a brigade of bulldozers on the Egyptian front before the 30 days war.**I expected you to know much better than that. We already know that Mark and Luke were Paul’s disciples. I am of the opinion that the other two who wrote Matthew and John were obviously his disciples too. Being Paul’s disciples, what are
we to expect, that they were not heavily influenced by Paul? I have not mentioned that before because I thought you guys were aware of this.
Ben:
Most scholars (reputable ones) put Matthew as complete before Romans so how could Matthew (an original apostle) be a disciple of Paul?
Normal study (including the “Jewishness” of the Gospels) leads to a time line like this:
30-33AD Jesus is Crucified, Dies and is Resurrected.
Early 50s - Matthew
55-65 AD - Mark
Early 50s - Luke
85-95AD John
Early to mid 60s - Acts
Romans - 57AD
Corinthians 1 - early 55 AD, 2 summer 55AD (note that 2 Corinthians references Luke’s gospel and so Luke was obviously earlier than this.
Galatians - ~55AD
Ephesians 60 AD
Philippians 61AD
Colossians 60-61AD
1&2 Thessalonians 51-52AD
1&2 Timothy ~ 67AD
Titus 65AD
Philemon 60-61AD
Since we know that only Thessalonians were written before Luke and Thessalonians were written to defend against Paganism and were not overly interested in Christology therefore no reasonable man can assume that Paul is the over-arching head of some NT conspiracy. Sorry, but Paul was not the “inventor of Christianity” as some disillusioned Rabbi’s like to write about but was , instead, one who was approached by and interacted with the risen Christ.
"Who hath believed our report?And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground.There is no beauty in him,nor comeliness:and we have seen him,and there was no sightliness,that we should be desirous of him: despised and the most abject of men,a man of sorrows,and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised whereupon we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows; and we have thought of him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins.The chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.All we like sheep have gone astray, everyone hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth. He shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. He was taken away from distress, and from judgement. Who shall declare his generation? Because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him. And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death, because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity. If he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand. Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled.By his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death and was reputed with the wicked. And he hath borne the sins of many and hath prayed for the transgressors… Isaiah Ch. 53 Ben, hope this chapter from Isaiah the prophet will speak to your heart .**Jesus was a religious Jew. Therefore, anything not Jewish about Jesus is not true. That’s my historical reference. If you want me to call the quits, drop the claim that you are talking about a man called Jesus, who was a religious Jew.
Ben:
**That’s a great chapter. I consider Isaiah the most Messianic of all the Prophets, and this chapter of his, the most Messianic of them all in the Bible. Listen Matahari, do you really believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? If you do, take a look at Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name. If you are honest in your faith, try those quotations I have indicated above.
**Ben Masada;5036954:
**I know what you are trying to do. But it won’t help you. I am not making up anything. Just stretching out a little based on existent evidences. I don’t believe you will succeed to mess up my research by fabricating all those things above.
Ben:**
**And a religious Jew at that. If you don’t want to join his faith which was
**“Will establish” in the future tense?At least, this time, you got it right.
The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. (Dan 2:35)
From exactly the same point you say it is Jesus; I say it is Israel.
In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44)
**A Kingdom that the Almighty will establish with Israel.
Ben:
Ben, remember that Jesus was sent to the Jewish people, in turn they introduced Jesus to us the Gentiles. We are the Chosen ones now. Whether you believe it or not. So hasten your arrogance.**And a religious Jew at that. If you don’t want to join his faith which was
Judaism, at least try not to temper with it by introducing Hellenistic innovations into it… Thank you.
Ben:
Replacement Theology has become known as a form of Antisemitism.
**That’s a prophecy for the future and not for the past. And if you are thinking about Jesus, what kind of kingdom he became a king of? What you subscribe to, you need faith that moves mountain. The only thing Jesus got closest to a king was that plate on the top of his cross. Therefore, you must be joking!“Will establish” in the future tense?
If you are saying David’s heir is still future, that would mean the statue is still standing. But that can’t be, because those kingdoms and their kings have been extinct for millennia. Something doesn’t add up.
What week would we currently be in?
"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and for your holy city: Then transgression will stop and sin will end, guilt will be expiated, Everlasting justice will be introduced, vision and prophecy ratified, and a most holy will be anointed. (Dan 9:24)
Ryan
**Ya, that’s because everything anybody does is considered anti-semitism in your eyes…and just another reminder Ben, there will never be a “replacement theology” but a New Covenant with an extension of the Old. It is the New Testament now Ben, the New Testament of Jesus Christ.
