The Mark of the Beast

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5138490:

Ben, dear Ben!!! Peter points out the wrong, but not in condemning those who did it! Or if he did, show me from the text itself, please!

I agree with you that Peter did not condemn any Jew, because he knew that the Jews had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. The guy who delivered that speech in Acts 2 yes, he accused the Jews with being responsible for the death of Jesus. Read Acts 2:23. Then, in verse 36 he says openly that “The Lord and Messiah Jesus whom YOU CRUCIFIED.” This is a fase accusation which became a curse on the Jews for over 2,000 years. That’s pure Antisemitism, with source in the NT.

People have hated Jews before Jesus’ time. The Book of Esther was written way before! You may argue that it was fiction, but it certainly was a reflection of an actual situation faced by the Jews.

What happened to the Jews in Persia at the time of Esther does not justify what we have suffered because of the lies of the NT.

BTW, it’s surprising how so many people have toward the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith the same gut reaction of hatred that so many have toward Judaism and the Jews… even though we have not been as pogromed and murdered as you Jews have been.

It’s a joke even to compare.

But toward us the people are more subtle, more sophisticated… so as to make it a laughable thing if we complain. It’s more hidden…

About Pope John 23rd, you are misrepresenting it. The forgiveness he asked was towards the sons and daughters of the Church who participated in antisemitic libels and acts.

**Pope John 23rd did mention the false accusation of the crucifixion too, not only all the blood libels throughout History including the false accusation that the Jews were responsible for the black plague. God Almighty! How many Jews had to be murdered by the Church because of the superstitions of Catholics with regards to the Black Plague! **

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Lapell;5139607:

Ben Masada;5138490:

I agree with you that Peter did not condemn any Jew, because he knew that the Jews had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. The guy who delivered that speech in Acts 2 yes, he accused the Jews with being responsible for the death of Jesus. Read Acts 2:23. Then, in verse 36 he says openly that “The Lord and Messiah Jesus whom YOU CRUCIFIED.” This is a fase accusation which became a curse on the Jews for over 2,000 years. That’s pure Antisemitism, with source in the NT.

What happened to the Jews in Persia at the time of Esther does not justify what we have suffered because of the lies of the NT.

It’s a joke even to compare.

But toward us the people are more subtle, more sophisticated… so as to make it a laughable thing if we complain. It’s more hidden…

**Pope John 23rd did mention the false accusation of the crucifixion too, not only all the blood libels throughout History including the false accusation that the Jews were responsible for the black plague. God Almighty! How many Jews had to be murdered by the Church because of the superstitions of Catholics with regards to the Black Plague! **

Playing the victim card again…it gets old after a while…

 

[matahari]

Perspective is needed. Mankind has quite a bloody history and the 20th century was the bloodiest of all ! There was the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks one hundred years ago. Many Catholic priests and nuns died also in Hitler’s death camps { I mean thousands ] and prior to death selected for severest treatment. Stalin starved 12 million people and the purges and other atrocities associated with his regime. How many millions died in Cambodia under Pol Pot ? Then there was the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror mainly aimed at the Catholic church. Irish Catholics were under religious persecution by Britain for 800 years which also included a preventible famine in 1845 which resulted in millions of deaths and the population reduced to about 2mn. . People eating grass to try and stay alive. The difference for a Christian is that his faith tells him he MUST forgive his enemy and leave vengeance to the Lord. But as long as you live by ‘eye for eye ’ and ’ tooth for tooth’ violence and revenge just escalate. What hope will there ever be for peace? The events leading up to the death of Jesus happened just as the Gospels say but it was a corrupt religious leadership that plotted his death. Out of the darkest deed in human history God has brought the greatest victory !

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5140377:

Lapell;5139607:

Playing the victim card again…it gets old after a while…

**To forget is an invitation to have it happen all over again. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Perspective is needed. Mankind has quite a bloody history and the 20th century was the bloodiest of all ! There was the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks one hundred years ago. Many Catholic priests and nuns died also in Hitler’s death camps { I mean thousands ] and prior to death selected for severest treatment. Stalin starved 12 million people and the purges and other atrocities associated with his regime. How many millions died in Cambodia under Pol Pot ? Then there was the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror mainly aimed at the Catholic church. Irish Catholics were under religious persecution by Britain for 800 years which also included a preventible famine in 1845 which resulted in millions of deaths and the population reduced to about 2mn. . People eating grass to try and stay alive. The difference for a Christian is that his faith tells him he MUST forgive his enemy and leave vengeance to the Lord. But as long as you live by ‘eye for eye ’ and ’ tooth for tooth’ violence and revenge just escalate. What hope will there ever be for peace? The events leading up to the death of Jesus happened just as the Gospels say but it was a corrupt religious leadership that plotted his death. Out of the darkest deed in human history God has brought the greatest victory !

**I repeat and say: The Jewish leaders had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was crucified for political reasons. And Jesus was not alone. Thousands of Jews were crucified in the same manner that Jesus was.

And you say that the difference with Chirstians is that they forgive their enemy. Very good!
Why didn’t they forgive the Jews by letting them believe they way they wanted, instead of killing so many during the Inquisition for resisting the Christian attempt to convert?**

 

[ryanoneil]

Well, did God not tell Moses to make the Tent of the Meeting and the things used in the sacrificial system according to the model that He showed him on the Mount?

Yes! I don’t understand the question.

 

[ryanoneil]

This is a perfect description of an anthropomorphic God.

I wasn’t commenting on God. I was commenting on the Temple being a miniature representation of the heaven’s and earth.

God chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which he favored. He built his shrine like the heavens, like the earth which he founded forever. He chose David his servant, took him from the sheepfold. From tending sheep God brought him, to shepherd Jacob, his people, Israel, his heritage. He shepherded them with a pure heart; with skilled hands he guided them. (Ps 78:68-72)

This point needs to be understood in order to make sense of Jesus’ words (Mat 5:18).

 

[cthulhubryan]

He did not condemn our deed. He falsely accused us of something we did not do it. And because of that false accusation we have become a curse in the eyes of the world. Read Psalm 44:11-26.

I was going to stay out of this due to Ben’s wicked spirit in these discussions, but I cannot allow this to pass.

Psalm 44 8-26
In God we make our boast all day long,
and we will praise your name forever.
Selah

But now you have rejected and humbled us;
you no longer go out with our armies.

You made us retreat before the enemy,
and our adversaries have plundered us.

You gave us up to be devoured like sheep
and have scattered us among the nations.

You sold your people for a pittance,
gaining nothing from their sale.

You have made us a reproach to our neighbors,
the scorn and derision of those around us.

You have made us a byword among the nations;
the peoples shake their heads at us.

My disgrace is before me all day long,
and my face is covered with shame

at the taunts of those who reproach and revile me,
because of the enemy, who is bent on revenge.

All this happened to us,
though we had not forgotten you
or been false to your covenant.

Our hearts had not turned back;
our feet had not strayed from your path.

But you crushed us and made us a haunt for jackals
and covered us over with deep darkness.

If we had forgotten the name of our God
or spread out our hands to a foreign god,

would not God have discovered it,
since he knows the secrets of the heart?

Yet for your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep?
Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever.

Why do you hide your face
and forget our misery and oppression?

We are brought down to the dust;
our bodies cling to the ground.

Rise up and help us;
redeem us because of your unfailing love.

Yes, God did cause Israel to be scattered many times. God did also redeem them. Just because they kept their hearts hard to the Lord does not mean that the Redeemer did not come to them.

The Jews did not crucify Jesus, they simply had the Romans do it for them. Read the Holy Scriptures. Or if you choose to disregard Holy Scriptures then read Josephus:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

the italics are mine.

Also, please respect the rules of the forums which says to be respectful. Bringing up the lies that are the behind Replacement Theology and calling it (and thus Christianity) anti-semitic is not respectful.

In short: Jesus was a Jew. Jesus started the Christian (Catholic) Church through Peter as is stated in the Bible. Paul was an apostle of Christ though he only met the risen Christ.

It was the will of the leading Jews of the time that Christ be crucified. The romans did the deed at the behest of the Sanhedrin.

 

[racing59]

666 is in the Bible many times.Solomon charge 666 gold talents to worship in the Temple( I Kings 10:14). I have never understood the paryniod in a number. Man and beast where both created on the 6th day. Meaning when we allow are carnal nature to take over are not we acting as a beast?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I was going to stay out of this due to Ben’s wicked spirit in these discussions, but I cannot allow this to pass.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Ben, no matter what people tell you with their Scriptural evidence, you still are hung up on St. Paul. GIVE IT UP for God’s sake, you are wrong! What is wrong with you? Your obsession with Paul is almost a laughing matter when you state he started the Catholic faith. Accept that you are wrong. A Jew telling Catholics how the Catholic faith started, and insisting it is the correct way is absurd.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, no matter what people tell you with their Scriptural evidence, you still are hung up on St. Paul. GIVE IT UP for God’s sake, you are wrong! What is wrong with you? Your obsession with Paul is almost a laughing matter when you state he started the Catholic faith. Accept that you are wrong. A Jew telling Catholics how the Catholic faith started, and insisting it is the correct way is absurd.

There is just one way to confirm my absurdity. Explain Acts 11:26 to me. The obsession is rather upon you guys who don’t want to open your eyes to what is written. It says in there that Christianity started with Paul. What do you want me to do if you are contradicting Jesus with being the one?

 

[racing59]

There is just one way to confirm my absurdity. Explain Acts 11:26 to me. The obsession is rather upon you guys who don’t want to open your eyes to what is written. It says in there that Christianity started with Paul. What do you want me to do if you are contradicting Jesus with being the one?

Hi Ben, I read the Scripture you gave ,but in the NAB it just says,". and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians."It doesn’t say by whom or who was leader.You are right that the Jewish people have always gotten a bum wrap. The Jewish people are still God’s chosen Covenant Theology teaches us that.None of us would be here without the Kingdom of Israel. Shalom!

 

[ryanoneil]

There is just one way to confirm my absurdity. Explain Acts 11:26 to me. The obsession is rather upon you guys who don’t want to open your eyes to what is written. It says in there that Christianity started with Paul. What do you want me to do if you are contradicting Jesus with being the one?

It doesn’t say Christianity started with Paul. it says the disciples were “first called Christians” at Antioch. The number of Gentiles in the community made it stand out clearly from Judaism.

Samaritans had already been brought into the Church in (Acts 8:14) by Peter and John. Read chapter 10 and the first half of chapter 11 and you will see that PETER was the one who disregarded the Jewish policy of separation from Gentiles (which Jesus also did).

and said to them, "You know that it is unlawful for a Jewish man to associate with, or visit, a Gentile, but God has shown me that I should not call any person profane or unclean. (Acts 10:28)

The same Peter who was told:

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Mt 16:18-19)

It was God who directed the first Gentile conversions through Peter. With the support of his fellow Apostles, it was Peter who sent Barnabas and Paul to Antioch.

and when they recognized the grace bestowed upon me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas their right hands in partnership, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. (Gal 2:9)

 

[ryanoneil]

Later, the Church in Anticoch looked to the apostolic Church in Jerusalem for doctrinal guidance to help inculturate the gospel in their mixed community (where Jewish and Gentile believers lived side by side). Of course there was friction, but the prophets envisioned Yaweh gathering the Gentiles into his covenant family in the messianic age.

After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me. Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name. The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written: ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again, so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things, known from of old.’ (Acts 15:13-18)

James’ confirmation of the Gentile conversions is found here:

Thus says the LORD against all my evil neighbors who plunder the heritage which I gave my people Israel as their own: See, I will pluck them up from their land; the house of Judah I will pluck up in their midst. But after plucking them up, I will pity them again and bring them back, each to his heritage, each to his land. And if they carefully learn my people’s custom of swearing by my name, “As the LORD lives,” they who formerly taught my people to swear by Baal shall be built up in the midst of my people. But if they do not obey, I will uproot and destroy that nation entirely, says the LORD. (Jer 12:14-17)

*The eyes of the Lord GOD are on this sinful kingdom; I will destroy it from off the face of the earth. But I will not destroy the house of Jacob completely, says the LORD. For see, I have given the command to sift the house of Israel among all the nations, As one sifts with a sieve, letting no pebble fall to the ground. By the sword shall all sinners among my people die, those who say, “Evil will not reach or overtake us.” On that day I will raise up the fallen hut of David; I will wall up its breaches, raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old, That they may conquer what is left of Edom and all the nations that shall bear my name, say I, the LORD, who will do this. * (Amos 9:8-12)

I have not spoken from hiding nor from some dark place of the earth, And I have not said to the descendants of Jacob, “Look for me in an empty waste.” I, the LORD, promise justice, I foretell what is right. Come and assemble, gather together, you fugitives from among the gentiles! They are without knowledge who bear wooden idols and pray to gods that cannot save. Come here and declare in counsel together: Who announced this from the beginning and foretold it from of old? Was it not I, the LORD, besides whom there is no other God? There is no just and saving God but me. Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other! By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear, Saying, “Only in the LORD are just deeds and power. Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him. In the LORD shall be the vindication and the glory of all the descendants of Israel.” (Is 45:19-25)

 

[Nino]

Joe DiMaggio was an Italian-Ameican but became a NYYankee when he bought into the franchise and became the greatest center fielder of all time! Jesus was born into the Jewish tradition but went one step further…taking His orders from his Father in Heaven…so technically Jesus was born a Jew but died a Christian. His followers were stoned and not allowed to preach in the temples etc…and thats why the movement…Jews for Jesus are also hated by some. so many wish to claim Jesus.all they have to do is pick up His cross and follow Him…He left His teachings …in Rome…all roads lead to Rome…when Rome falls,the world falls…

 

[racing59]

Joe DiMaggio was an Italian-Ameican but became a NYYankee when he bought into the franchise and became the greatest center fielder of all time! Jesus was born into the Jewish tradition but went one step further…taking His orders from his Father in Heaven…so technically Jesus was born a Jew but died a Christian. His followers were stoned and not allowed to preach in the temples etc…and thats why the movement…Jews for Jesus are also hated by some. so many wish to claim Jesus.all they have to do is pick up His cross and follow Him…He left His teachings …in Rome…all roads lead to Rome…when Rome falls,the world falls…

Nino,please show me were in the Bible Israel stopped being God’s choosen people? Did not Jesus die for all Mankind and not just the Christians?

 

[ryanoneil]

Nino,please show me were in the Bible Israel stopped being God’s choosen people?

Technically it has happened (even if only for a moment)! There is no doubt the Exodus and Sinai where the biggest divine sign showing the Israelites were God’s chosen people.

tell the Israelites: You have seen for yourselves how I treated the Egyptians and how I bore you up on eagle wings and brought you here to myself. Therefore, if you hearken to my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my special possession, dearer to me than all other people, though all the earth is mine. (Ex 19:4-5)

But don’t miss the big “if” in all of what God is saying here at Sinai: “If you hearken to My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be My special possession…” Now please don’t take this the wrong way, but after the golden calf affair God disowned Israel in a sense.

With that, the LORD said to Moses, "Go down at once to your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, for they have become depraved. (Ex 32:7)

The covenant makes Israel the sons and daughters of God and they broke it. By calling them “Moses’ people” He was saying they were “no people”. Of course, God spared them for the sake of the covenant and they will always be His people, but technically you could say they were not (even if only for a moment).

Did not Jesus die for all Mankind and not just the Christians?:confused:

He did!

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. (Jn 3:16)

God is the Father of all nations, including His first-born son (Israel).

 

[racing59]

Technically it has happened (even if only for a moment)! There is no doubt the Exodus and Sinai where the biggest divine sign showing the Israelites were God’s chosen people.

tell the Israelites: You have seen for yourselves how I treated the Egyptians and how I bore you up on eagle wings and brought you here to myself. Therefore, if you hearken to my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my special possession, dearer to me than all other people, though all the earth is mine. (Ex 19:4-5)

But don’t miss the big “if” in all of what God is saying here at Sinai: “If you hearken to My voice and keep My covenant, you shall be My special possession…” Now please don’t take this the wrong way, but after the golden calf affair God disowned Israel in a sense.

With that, the LORD said to Moses, "Go down at once to your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt, for they have become depraved. (Ex 32:7)

The covenant makes Israel the sons and daughters of God and they broke it. By calling them “Moses’ people” He was saying they were “no people”. Of course, God spared them for the sake of the covenant and they will always be His people, but technically you could say they were not (even if only for a moment).

He did!

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. (Jn 3:16)

God is the Father of all nations, including His first-born son (Israel).

It is true God called Israel,Moses’ people,but do you really think God was disowning Israel or setting Moses up for a test to see if he would be a prefigure of Jesus and give himself for the peoples sin?Did not Israel go on in fullfillment of God’s Covenant and become a great nation? Did not Jesus Christ come from the Tribe of Judah? Those that sinned at Siani were not alowed to enter the Promise Land, but Israel still survived as his chosen people.Isn’t the Kingdom of Israel at the Root of all Christianity?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Joe DiMaggio was an Italian-Ameican but became a NYYankee when he bought into the franchise and became the greatest center fielder of all time! Jesus was born into the Jewish tradition but went one step further…taking His orders from his Father in Heaven…so technically Jesus was born a Jew but died a Christian. His followers were stoned and not allowed to preach in the temples etc…and thats why the movement…Jews for Jesus are also hated by some. so many wish to claim Jesus.

all they have to do is pick up His cross and follow Him…He left His teachings …in Rome…all roads lead to Rome…when Rome falls,the world falls…