The Mark of the Beast

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Lapell said:
One thing that you have to understand, Ben, is that when Jesus did die on the cross (and he did die on the cross) and was buried in a tomb (Mary, Jesus’ mother, Mary Magdalene, a few other women, the apostle John, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were there and you can be sure they told the other Apostles and disciples about it, some of them at least), their faith about Jesus being the Messiah was quite shattered, actually. You may not believe this to be the actual truth, but it is. Although we are told that Mary, Jesus’ mother kept believing in Him, although she was troubled and did not understand then exactly what God was up to… I think "Minky… " meant that their faith in Him as the Messiah was more solid from then on, for they seemed to have given up on Him until He appeared to them in person.
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Are you positive that Jesus died on the cross? I don’t think that even Luke was that positive, because he said that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, he would present convincing proofs that he was alive AFTER HIS SUFFERINGS OR PASSION. That’s no evidence that he had died on the cross.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**

Look, for heaven’s sake, at your last sentence above. “We’d witness!” Who, the guys who were writing these fabrications? None of them ever witnessed anything. They were writing them, only God knows, from somewhere in the Greek world, and you now… Well, I am embarrassed about the power of faith over Reason.**
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So you worship the Goddess Reason ! So did the French revolutionaries during the Reign of Terror . Going back to the Garden of Eden Adam was commanded by God not to eat from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil which , as we know, he disobeyed. Because of his rebellion they were driven out of the garden and not allowed to eat from the tree of life which was guarded by the Cherubim with the flaming sword.
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which led to their downfall. It had been God’s original intent that they would eat from the Tree of Life . So knowledge is not enough .

Solomon , son of David was gifted with great wisdom, but it seems this was not sufficient to save mankind or himself from falling into total corruption.
 
Ben_Masada said:
To believe in something you are not sure is to believe blindly. At least, you have going in your favor, that “no one can prove beyond doubt that Jesus rose from the dead.” It means, you are not beyond repair.
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Ok now that’s going too far because your getting personal. To say someone is not beyond repair infers they are damaged in some way and it infers that you personally can do something about which is insulting, patronising and possibly sacrareligious as only God can heal someone who is damaged in the way you are inferring. You should not jump to conclusions about individual people you only know from a post on the internet.

I entered into diaglogue with you not because I wanted to convince you of what I think ,but because as an RS student, I have an interest in world religions and I thought you could give me greater insight the books of the Bible we call the Old Testament. Sadly Ben, you haven’t. Your approach is antagonistic, you jump from one scripture to another which is not a good thing when considering Biblical text, you’ve taken things I have said out of context, when I try to be reasonable your posts suggest you resent that, and I still don’t know what the purpose of this thread is.

Very disapponting.😦
 
Hi Ben!

I laughed at this statement you made it reminded me of something i have wanted to post…
you must have detected that I am not here to win Catholics away, but to claim Jesus as one of our own, which is exactly what he was: A Jew and not a Christian.
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I get tickled sometimes in here and want to ask “Is the Pope Jewish?”

A few years back I recall how shocking it was when someone said Mary was not a good Catholic girl, but a good Jewish girl 🙂
 
OnlyJesus said:
I get tickled sometimes in here and want to ask “Is the Pope Jewish?”

A few years back I recall how shocking it was when someone said Mary was not a good Catholic girl, but a good Jewish girl 🙂
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That was side-splitting . Have you got any more gems like that ?😉
 
Ben_Masada said:
I can’t believe how you guys are so willing to keep the blinders on and refuse to see gospel or Church conspiracy to transfer the blame of Jesus’ death from the Romans to the Jews. What makes me not lose my faith in your intelligence is that I am sure you guys know that something is wrong here. But between opting for the commonsense and demand an explanation, you prefer to let injustice rest on the shoulders of the Church. Therefore you, so to speak, wash your hands.
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I have no idea what you are trying to say. I can’t speak for ever Christian denomination out there because there are tens of thousands. But as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, there is no conspiracy to transfer the blame because all parties are responsible! No one group or individual can be blamed. And if you get right down to it, everyone who has ever sinned is responsible (in a sense) because Jesus died for the sin of the world.

And you never answered my question. What did Jesus (a devout Jew who was faithfull to the Law) do to get the attention Rome? What did he do that warranted the death sentence?
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Well, what difference was there between his lowly body of before resurrection and his glorified body of afterwards if he was partaking of the same things of prior to it? Watch, because you must be digging contradictions in the NT. **
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You didn’t read the link did you? The main difference is a resurrected body is immortal and incorruptible.

**On this mountain he will destroy the veil that veils all peoples, The web that is woven over all nations; he will destroy death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from all faces; The reproach of his people he will remove from the whole earth; for the LORD has spoken. (Isa 25:7-8)

Shall I deliver them from the power of the nether world? shall I redeem them from death? Where are your plagues, O death! where is your sting, O nether world! My eyes are closed to compassion. (Hos 13:14)**
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Have you ever pondered about what you say? You are talking about opinions and hypotheses of people writing about a case 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. Please, have mercy on yourself!

Look, for heaven’s sake, at your last sentence above. “We’d witness!” Who, the guys who were writing these fabrications? None of them ever witnessed anything. They were writing them, only God knows, from somewhere in the Greek world, and you now… Well, I am embarrassed about the power of faith over Reason.**
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You shouldn’t point fingers. Should I say Daniel (for example) is the opinion and hypothoses of people writing about a case 300+ years after the fact? What about some of your other favorite books? The majority of the Bible is written down after the fact, where the actual events didn’t take place.
 
Ben_Masada said:
**Have you ever pondered about what you say? You are talking about opinions and hypotheses of people writing about a case 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. Please, have mercy on yourself!

Look, for heaven’s sake, at your last sentence above. “We’d witness!” Who, the guys who were writing these fabrications? None of them ever witnessed anything. They were writing them, only God knows, from somewhere in the Greek world, and you now… Well, I am embarrassed about the power of faith over Reason.**
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Again, how do you KNOW that they ARE fabrications? You are assuming they are, it’s obvious! But as for your reasons to do so, I doubt you will tell us. “For heaven’s sake” indeed!!!
 
Would you say the narrative parts of Exodus and Numbers only are fabrications? Please tell us!
 
minkymurph said:
Ok now that’s going too far because your getting personal. To say someone is not beyond repair infers they are damaged in some way and it infers that you personally can do something about which is insulting, patronising and possibly sacrareligious as only God can heal someone who is damaged in the way you are inferring. You should not jump to conclusions about individual people you only know from a post on the internet.

I entered into diaglogue with you not because I wanted to convince you of what I think ,but because as an RS student, I have an interest in world religions and I thought you could give me greater insight the books of the Bible we call the Old Testament. Sadly Ben, you haven’t. Your approach is antagonistic, you jump from one scripture to another which is not a good thing when considering Biblical text, you’ve taken things I have said out of context, when I try to be reasonable your posts suggest you resent that, and I still don’t know what the purpose of this thread is.

Very disapponting.😦
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In Biblical interpretation, it’s not a rare thing to bring other verses to confirm or precise better what a Biblical verse says, so in itself using other verses is not a bad thing… except when in doing so you deliberately choose to leave out certain verses which would seem to confirm an idea which you are strongly gut-reacting against.(“You” here is not you personally. I could have said “one” instead…)
 
Ben_Masada said:
Are you positive that Jesus died on the cross? I don’t think that even Luke was that positive, because he said that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, he would present convincing proofs that he was alive AFTER HIS SUFFERINGS OR PASSION. That’s no evidence that he had died on the cross.
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Ben, Ben!! All four accounts of the Gospel, not just Luke, state that he died on the cross. Like it or not, Jesus did die on the cross. We are positive. We believe it from our whole heart, Ben. So did all the writers of the New Testament. You have been very unjust to them.
Maybe you just can’t see it, though it does not mean by any means that you will never, even though the possibility exists… You think it’s a lie, and you chose to believe those who have said and maintained it is… What can we say? Was Moses not considered one who would pretend to have come in the name of God just in order to submit the Israelites to him… We can’t force you to believe the Gospels, Ben. And you seem to believe the false theories you have put in writing here… Well, may the Lord God enlighten the ones who are now in darkness, even if it would be we, if you and we really are seeking the Truth… Amen!
Shalom!
 
Ben_Masada said:
Are you positive that Jesus died on the cross? I don’t think that even Luke was that positive, because he said that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, he would present convincing proofs that he was alive AFTER HIS SUFFERINGS OR PASSION. That’s no evidence that he had died on the cross.
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Not only do the Four Gospels tell us, and the OT, that Christ died on the Cross, there are numerous letters written that were from the Early Church Fathers that also clearly state this.
 
Lapell said:
In Biblical interpretation, it’s not a rare thing to bring other verses to confirm or precise better what a Biblical verse says, so in itself using other verses is not a bad thing… except when in doing so you deliberately choose to leave out certain verses which would seem to confirm an idea which you are strongly gut-reacting against.(“You” here is not you personally. I could have said “one” instead…)
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Your right, it’s not a rare thing to use individual verses. If you are using individual verses to highlight the main theme of a passage of scripture in order to gain deeper understanding of a specific point yes I this is useful. So yes, I can see what your saying that it is not a bad thing except when you deliberately choose to leave out certain passages because they do not support what you think.

The point I was making was using one verse in a passage of scripture to support a doctrine that must be believed in order to gain Salvation is not good as it is more than possible you can entirely miss the point the author is making by doing so. As Catholics, we do not interpret the Bible in this manner so I am not going outside Church teaching by saying this and in addition, this thought is not of my own orientation. It is the view of many Bible scholars and the Vatican.

There is one thing I would like to say about the Catholic faith. I have some wing ding arguements with people in the Catholic faith and we sometimes speak in very earthy language when we are discussing things. I am a very different Catholic to some other Catholics but to me, this is the beauty of our faith. Depsite these differences, we stand by each other in love. Love does not mean you like someone all the time or agree with them all the time. It means you stand by them when they need you irrespective of differences because you are united. I have never encountered this anywhere other than in the Catholic faith. I was not brought up Catholic and I have never been so touched by this as when I came into the Catholic faith. I have had Catholics who can’t stand the sight of me stand by me and stick up for me despite the fact they have big differences of opinion with me. To me, this can only be the action of God as human love does not stretch that far.

On thing I would like to say to Ben. You inferred I would be ‘called to account’ by other Catholics here. No one has done so. Why? Not because they agree with my opinions; I’m quite sure some of them don’t, but becuse they are willing to listen to me, give what I have to say respect, consider it and then form an opinion. It may not be mine but they will reason with me in a rational way without condemning me. Look at what I have said. No one has to agree with my theological opinions in order to gain salvation and other Catholics here understand that. The point I am making is that this could not be acheived other than it because God bonds us together. Seeing faith lived is not blind faith.
 
minkymurph said:
There is one thing I would like to say about the Catholic faith. I have some wing ding arguements with people in the Catholic faith and we sometimes speak in very earthy language when we are discussing things. I am a very different Catholic to some other Catholics but to me, this is the beauty of our faith. Depsite these differences, we stand by each other in love. Love does not mean you like someone all the time or agree with them all the time. It means you stand by them when they need you irrespective of differences because you are united. I have never encountered this anywhere other than in the Catholic faith. I was not brought up Catholic and I have never been so touched by this as when I came into the Catholic faith. I have had Catholics who can’t stand the sight of me stand by me and stick up for me despite the fact they have big differences of opinion with me. To me, this can only be the action of God as human love does not stretch that far.
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Where we can share a common ground despite our differences, yes indeed.
Still, regarding the differences you have with other Catholics… I just hope it’s not on essentials of our faith according to the Magisterium of our Church! Though I do know from experience that not everything from what the Church teaches is fully understood, and some of the essentials we may not understand where we are at that they are “essentials”… This is a general thing, of course, since I don’t know what are the differences you specifically have with other Catholics. It could also be on some things not really so essential per se, I don’t know. I’d suggest you send me a PM if you’d want to tell me more, since the thread has a more specific topic… O.K.? I am not a bishop nor a priest, but maybe it’s something I could say a thing or two quite within the rules, if you see what I mean… anyhow, just in case, O.K.?
 
Also, those differences could be discussed in another thread or with one of the CAF’s apologists, I think…
 
OnlyJesus said:
Hi Ben!

I laughed at this statement you made it reminded me of something i have wanted to post…

I get tickled sometimes in here and want to ask “Is the Pope Jewish?”

A few years back I recall how shocking it was when someone said Mary was not a good Catholic girl, but a good Jewish girl 🙂
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**Interesting that you ask, I mean, about the Pope. Have you ever heard that Pope Gregory VII was of Jewish origin?

The one about Mary, it’s obvious.**
 
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