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Elsa1
Guest
There is no question here? What is the question?
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Stephen168
New member
You said married people should not be treated any different than married people, so why bother declaring yourself married as oppose to not?
Stephen168
New member
So you also think married people and single people should be treated the same.
Are you saying you want to declare yourself married to be married, it that right?
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Elsa1
Guest
Of course, but I hope for the right reasons. What we have constructd around marriage from a govt perspective is certainly around the financial and legal goodies, which I am opposed too. But it goes to my point that when we did that, marriage became the average person’s equivalent of winning the lottery, ESPECIALLY for women and it lost is spiritual significance. Those girls you have known who wanted to be married…how many of then did NOT have diamond ring to kick it all off with? You must begin with the diamond ring (Just in case the dumb sap dumps her, she has at least gotten something out of it and his wallet!)…you then move on the to planning the big event and being “queen for a day”. Expensive dress ( Say YES to the Dress!..Bridezilla!) Of course, planning the Big day this also requires a massive and expensive gift registry (irrespective of their income) at numerous major department stores. Then once the BIG DAY happens, you really cash in and get even more, courtesy of Uncle Sam!
But being “married” in the way most of society views marriage is not only a financial lottery win but a social lottery win as well, on that says to young women AND men, " I have arrived" in life. As if to say that those five minutes just prior to saying “I do”, you were a total zero. And all of those millions of people who are not married and never will under our current notion of civil marriage are worthless individuals. And if you say I exaggerate, ask an older woman of your parents generation what not marrying meant to a women of the pre-baby boomer generation. In other words to the WWII generation and just post. It meant social starvation and deprivation, being called “old maid” and other lovely such terms…or worse, being suspected of swinging the other way.
So indeed, women have always wanted to be married as opposed to not. And yet, despite all the stuff and all the “protection” of marriage by the State, women and men are ending up increasingly divorced and alone while non married people are expected to pick up the slack in taxes and out of pocket expense when they want to do simple legal planning and living will issues.
Civil marriage is corrupt, it has destroyed true marriage and it needs to be abolished.
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Elsa1
Guest
Oh I see. I thought you were repeating the question on living together vs marriage. I assume you meant to write, “married people should not be treated any different than un-married people”?
You have posed an excellent question! It is the heart and soul of my reason for my entire philosophy on this issue! Why would I declare myself married if it means I would be treated NO differently than someone who DOES NOT declare themselves married?
The answer is because I don’t want or care about being treated differently than anyone else by virtue of marriage. I simply have found the right man to live my life with as man and woman. Isn’t that enough?
If it is not enough, then you and all of us have to ask the question of “why?”. Why would this simply not be enough? I personally think the answer to that question is in the words you used, “being treated differently”. By “differently” don’t you and society as a whole really mean, “superiorly”? I don’t see any other synonym that applies. And that is what I am opposed to morally, ethically and religiously.
Stephen168
New member
I’ve never known a single one of them to get a diamond ring to start off “their desire to be married.” Because of their desire to be married, many ended their dating relationship because it didn’t seem to be ending in marriage.
There is no financial lottery to getting married, in fact until 2003 a working married couple paid higher taxes just for getting married, thereby subsidizing single people. I do think you are correct in that by getting married people are saying “I have arrived.” There is a social status to being married, which is why I believe heterosexuals and homosexuals want to be viewed as married.
Stephen168
New member
I think it depends on the situation. Yes, I do think homosexuals want to be called “married” because they share your view. They want the same social status as real married people.
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Elsa1
Guest
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Elsa1
Guest
Homosexuals do nto share my view at all! If there is a group that is out for financial gain, it is the gay lobby.
Put it this way, if the states tomorrow stripped all legal and financial benefits from all civil marriages, I guaranty you, 99% of the gay lobby on marriage would dissappear! They want the goodies just as much as the heterosexuals do.
Stephen168
New member
I don’t think I’m dreaming. Can you list a few of the financial gains the government provides by just being married?
Stephen168
New member
You are wrong and Washington state is a current example. Domestic partnerships have the exact same legal status as marriages, but the homosexual lobby still pushed for a have received the ability receive a marriage license. They envy the status of marriage and want it.
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Elsa1
Guest
You can google “benfits of marriage” and find numerous articles and resources on this. But here is some info to get you started:
Besides love and companionship, there are many benefits to marriage, especially in the eyes of the law. In fact, there are 1,138 federal benefits, rights and responsibilities associated with marriage [ref]. In this section, we’ll list some of those benefits.
Tax Benefits
•Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
•Creating a “family partnership” under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
•Inheriting a share of your spouse’s estate.
•Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
•Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
•Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse – that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.
Government Benefits
•Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
•Receiving veterans’ and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
•Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
•Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse’s employer.
•Taking family leave to care
•Receiving wages, workers’ compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
•Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
•Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
•Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
•Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
•Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
•Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
•Applying for joint foster care rights.
•Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
•Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
•Living in neighborhoods zoned for “families only.”
•Automatically renewing
Consumer Benefits
•Receiving family rates for health, homeowners’, auto, and other types of insurance.
•Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
•Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
•Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
•Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
•Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
•Receiving crime victims’ recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
•Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
•Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
The source is Nolo.com
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Elsa1
Guest
When you create “civil partnerships” along side of civil marriage, then sure! Then the fight is more along the lines of “we’ll show them!”
I have no doubt they envy the status of marriage. We have made it into something it was never meant to be…
Stephen168
New member
I asked for “Government” “Financial” gains and you give me cut and paste. Most of these are not government, several are not financial, and many are false. As I said before; the first one on your list was a government financial penalty until 2003, it is not a gain. Your cut and paste is nothing but marriage envy which you share with the homosexual lobby.
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Elsa1
Guest
How are they not government provided? Estate planning? Of cours that is government. these are all, with the exception of private insurance, benefits that stem from federal laws!
Well, of course I am going to cut and past these! There are over 1300 federal marriage benefits, rights and respsonsibilities!!! What you want, long hand?
Those that you claim are not financial ARE INDEED FINANCIAL if you want to set them up outside of marriage! This is the ENTIRE POINT! If a so-called “single” person wants to set up a living will to have some of these same things like mere visitation rights, guess what? They need to pay out of pocket for an attorney to propery set up all of these same conditions. Now if that single person got a TAX CREDIT to cover these expenses, I would be less adament about all of this. But they don’t.
You confuse your inability to counter these arguements I have provided with what you perceive as “marriage envy”. Again, I don’t see these federal laws as being the equivalent of marriage. I believe only in non-state marriage. But I see you choose the state over God on this one. If that is incorrect, it it now up to YOU to provide an argument in favor of civil marriage. On your mark…get set…GO!!!
Stephen168
New member
Like I said, your cut and paste reeks of marriage envy due to the falsehoods it contains. If one envies marriage, there are two ways to approach it. One is let anyone claim to be married so they can feel the social status they envy, or neuter it so there is no social status. Homosexuals take one route and you take the other. Both destroy marriage.
Marriage is the seeds of family, and family is the basis of a society. Therefore, society supports marriage (see the non- government ways we treat married people). A non-government organization that would like to support marriage has to know who is married, and that sadly is provided by the state. I’ve never had the piece of paper from my Parish accepted as proof I was married.
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onthisrock
Guest
And the ACLU is working hard to protect it. I say, when people say that someone “needs help” there is NO help out there. I had a friend admit an attration to children but was so scared…where does he get help. If he says what his problem is these people are mandated reporters. so it’s let ithem get sicker until they act on it…pretty sad for people who want help that so many people say…“get help” for.
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onthisrock
Guest
I was actually quoting my friend who got himself in this position. He said He wouldn’t vote No on 8 because look at the mess he’s in. You’re not a christian at all. And only 2% are gay…fact.You have all different opinions going on in one sentence…maybe you should get that checked out? You don’t even know my name, who my friends are or are not…who told me about domestic partnership problems. etc. I am so sick of Liberals degrading the world. It used to be a nice place to live. Now you can’t even let your kids out to play. Are you being ridiculous or do you really believe that people vote privately for what you want because they’re sick of “hearing about it”? How old are you? Have you voted yet? VERY strange. If you are not Catholic or interested in Christian facts, you’re just stirring the pot as liberals love to do. Like I said the ACLU is fighting to protect pedophilia…after all, it IS an orientation…Is it not??? Where do we draw the line?This sounded so un-Christ like. Also, there’s way more than 2% of the population that wants same-sex marriage to be legal. Why? Because they are tired of gay people being treated as second class citizens. Canada legalized it, and so will the United States!
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Elizabeth502
Guest
It’s a threat and a harm because institutions mean something, universally, to a society. We are not insular units, for which education, marriage, child-rearing, and political systems affect only those directly involved – or even more inaccurately – affect only separate units of individuals.
Heterosexual single people are affected by the heterosexual divorce rate. They are also affected by the exponential increase in cohabitation as a trend.
If any kind of marriage “affected only that couple,” then the government would never get involved in approving marriages to begin with, because it would be considered “only a private affair,” which of course it is not. Even the secular government understands this transparent fact.
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Elsa1
Guest
But this is where I thnk you are spiritually off kilter. marriage was never designed for material gain via the state nor social status gain. It is INDEED the foundation of family and supports society, but ONLY if the people coming to marriage are doing so for the RIGHT reasons, not becuase they went out a paid the state 80 bucks for piece fo paper signed by a state bureaucrat! And the reasons they and you say they should be married are the wonrg reasons to me married. My way brings marriage back to its pure state. Your way allows it to remain corrupt and to continue corrupting new couples each and every day.
We shoudl not be treating people under the law or socially differently based on an 80 dollar piece of paper they purchase from the State. Rather, as Christians and Americans, we shouls be embracing a more Christ like and Constitutional manner toward people. And in doing this, the Christian marriage would return to the place of prominence in people’s lives that it now no longer has because as you point out, proof of marriage now “sadly is provided by the state.” Sad indeed. But in my system, your church marriage certificate would indeed serve as proof of marriage. However, the question has to be posed, under what situation or for what reasons would you feel it necessary to “prove” that you are married? My guess is that it somehow would revolve areound a legal or financial advantage of some kind over those who are not “married”. In my system, at least under federal and state law, those advantages would go away. The private sector can do what it wishes provided what they do is not outright discriminatory and my system, I suspect what you would be after, would be after, would be.
Here is another point that I make. Let’s assume that the system you love so much is the moral and ethical system you say it is. Then by all measures of ethics and morality, those persons who are “married” and who obtain the financial advantages and others that we are discussing under the law, if they subsequently divorce, which of course is the case for the majority of so-called “marriages” today, then all of the previous fincancial benefits they received, whether via the tax code or otherwise should be, under the law, subject to be refunded to the government upon the issuance of a divorce decree, equally shared by both parties. That would be fair. And again, it something, if that existed, woudl make me less adament about the current corrupted state of marriage today. but of course, we know, it does not. From the social side fo things, I think it only fair that a couple that divorces also refund all material gifts including any money and material goods they received from family and friends upon divorce. They broke the contract therefore they do not deseve to keep the material bounty.
Marriage is not about our egos. It is about serving God by serving one’s spouse.
Let go of the material and social status mindset and embrace pure marriage as God meant it to be.
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