The Marriage Bed

[CaughtInWonder]

I have come very close to taking the step of being confirmed in the church, but I just discovered, and am really struggling with the topic of what sexual acts are “permitted” within marriage. I understand that the sexual act must ultimately end (for the man) with climax inside of his wife. That makes sense to me. What I am struggling with is this: I recently read and saw people saying things such as places you can and can’t touch your wife or do with your wife during the sexual act, or as foreplay. I understand that the church is trying to keep the sexual relations between a man and woman pure. But if you’re really doing things for each other’s pleasure, and ultimately the end result is unitive and procreative, I don’t see what the problem is… I don’t even know if what I read was a church teaching or if it was some extremely conservative Catholic’s opinion. But if the act ends as unitive and procreative, does it really make sense to worry about those other things? Unfortunately this has scared me out of the church for the time being… So any help or advice would be great… Thank you.

 

[phil19034]

I have come very close to taking the step of being confirmed in the church, but I just discovered, and am really struggling with the topic of what sexual acts are “permitted” within marriage. I understand that the sexual act must ultimately end (for the man) with climax inside of his wife. That makes sense to me. What I am struggling with is this: I recently read and saw people saying things such as places you can and can’t touch your wife or do with your wife during the sexual act, or as foreplay. I understand that the church is trying to keep the sexual relations between a man and woman pure. But if you’re really doing things for each other’s pleasure, and ultimately the end result is unitive and procreative, I don’t see what the problem is… I don’t even know if what I read was a church teaching or if it was some extremely conservative Catholic’s opinion. But if the act ends as unitive and procreative, does it really make sense to worry about those other things? Unfortunately this has scared me out of the church for the time being… So any help or advice would be great… Thank you.

Foreplay is allowed as long as the intention is for the husband to climax inside the wife (assuming that one does not objectify or demean one’s spouse).

The only thing that is strictly prohibited is anal sex.

Your rational is inside the teachings of the Church, so please do not let what you read keep you from becoming Confirmed.

God Bless.

 

[RPRPsych]

I have come very close to taking the step of being confirmed in the church, but I just discovered, and am really struggling with the topic of what sexual acts are “permitted” within marriage. I understand that the sexual act must ultimately end (for the man) with climax inside of his wife. That makes sense to me. What I am struggling with is this: I recently read and saw people saying things such as places you can and can’t touch your wife or do with your wife during the sexual act, or as foreplay. I understand that the church is trying to keep the sexual relations between a man and woman pure. But if you’re really doing things for each other’s pleasure, and ultimately the end result is unitive and procreative, I don’t see what the problem is… I don’t even know if what I read was a church teaching or if it was some extremely conservative Catholic’s opinion. But if the act ends as unitive and procreative, does it really make sense to worry about those other things? Unfortunately this has scared me out of the church for the time being… So any help or advice would be great… Thank you.

You’re good to go. Those very “places” are either listed or alluded to in the Song of Solomon, if that helps.

A few rigorists may tell you otherwise, but Puritans are Puritans even if they call themselves Catholic. As long as the marital act is unitive and ordered toward procreation, there shouldn’t be any problem at all.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The only thing that is strictly prohibited is anal sex.

My understanding was that this fell under the same heading as other sexual acts, namely, it cannot be the end goal of the act and the man cannot climax during it.

To the OP, no worries, you’re good. As RPR said, the only consideration is that it has to be both unitive and procreative.

 

[CaughtInWonder]

So anal sex is prohibited. This makes sense to me. I don’t know exactly how to go about talking about this without going into details of the sex (which is one of the things that I don’t feel like we should have to go into such fine detail of what we are and aren’t/can and can’t do).

But since anal sex is prohibited, does this mean that stimulation of this area either by manual or oral means (either as foreplay or during the procreative sexual act) is also prohibited?

And also is the manual stimulation of the female genitals permissible during the act of unitive and procreative sex in order to increase/further her pleasure?

Again I apologize for going into detail, and I guess I just want to know if these things even matter so much as the ultimate goal will be and end with unitive and procreative sex.

 

[RPRPsych]

My understanding was that this fell under the same heading as other sexual acts, namely, it cannot be the end goal of the act and the man cannot climax during it.

This is a bit of a controversial topic.

In the Response of the Sacred Penitentiary, 1916 (Denzinger 3634), “the crime of the Sodomites” (= anal sex) is condemned as gravely evil; “there is no motive…that would permit the wife…to carry out such a shameless act with her husband.” However, this reference is clearly to completed or consummated anal intercourse.

There are some theologians who claim (so I’ve heard) that this restriction does not apply to unconsummated anal sex, but I need a reference for this.

 

[tafan]

CaughtInWonder, I would recommend reading the following two documents

ewtn.com/library/marriage/mormar.txt

twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html

The former is a little older, but it is very good and a quick read. The latter is from a Catholic Moral Theology catechism written by a very well respected moral theologian and the whole book is online.

You will not find the specific answers to your detailed “do and don’ts” question. What you will gain is a good understanding of the Church’s actual teachings on this subject, which lacks detailed “dos and don’ts”. Hence, the controversy that often surrounds the topic.

I will provide one quote from the first document:

“With respect to the nature of the act, this is spoilt only when
its character is vitiated by the sin of onanism, which is treated
of in a later chapter”,

And in the later chapter:

The principal sin of impurity in married people is called
onanism, after Onan, an Old Testament character who spilt his
seed rather than risk having a child. The sin is very old, though
in recent years scientific men have developed its technique and
commercial firms have pushed its appeal. This sin covers all
methods of contraception that affect the actual act of
intercourse. It would be out of place to describe the various
methods here, some are less harmful than others, but all are
wrong, and for the same reason

Please note: the author uses Onanism (some refer to this as masturbation) as contraception, because at its heart, that is what contraception is: masturbation. As is other acts which complete the act in an unnatural way. But beyond that, the Church has never made absolute guidelines about foreplay, etc.

 

[RPRPsych]

So anal sex is prohibited. This makes sense to me. I don’t know exactly how to go about talking about this without going into details of the sex (which is one of the things that I don’t feel like we should have to go into such fine detail of what we are and aren’t/can and can’t do).

But since anal sex is prohibited, does this mean that stimulation of this area either by manual or oral means (either as foreplay or during the procreative sexual act) is also prohibited?

My guess would be a cautious yes, but again, this is a guess.

And also is the manual stimulation of the female genitals permissible during the act of unitive and procreative sex in order to increase/further her pleasure?

Here, we’re on firmer ground because

a) there’s no open condemnation of this practice, and
b) Bl. Pope John Paul II had this to say:

“From the point of view of another person, from the altruistic standpoint, it is necessary to insist that intercourse must not serve merely as a means of allowing sexual excitement to reach its climax in one of the partners, i.e. the man alone, but that climax must be reached in harmony, not at the expense of one partner, but with both partners fully involved.”

So I don’t really see a problem here.

 

[CaughtInWonder]

Yeah, this is the part I’m having issues with. Because I’m not mentioning anal sex; I’m saying stimulation of that area by other means (such as manually or orally), and I guess I don’t see why manual or oral stimulation of this area as foreplay or during the marital act is unacceptable, while manual or oral stimulation of the genitals as foreplay or during the marital act is.
I just don’t understand why it matters when it is a private thing between a husband, wife, and God, and when they are doing these things in mutual agreement to bring each other closer together. Especially with the act ultimately being and ending in a unitive and procreative manner. It’s not like I’m talking about onanism here. Can you see what I mean? I think different men and women have different things they’re into, and so long as the act ends in a unitive and procreative way, and both feel satisfied with what happens, does it really matter? And does the church really teach against this? Or are these just things that, as said before, are strict Puritan points of view, and are ultimately up to each individual husband and wife to decide what they feel comfortable with?

 

[underacloud]

I have come very close to taking the step of being confirmed in the church, but I just discovered, and am really struggling with the topic of what sexual acts are “permitted” within marriage. I understand that the sexual act must ultimately end (for the man) with climax inside of his wife. That makes sense to me. What I am struggling with is this: I recently read and saw people saying things such as places you can and can’t touch your wife or do with your wife during the sexual act, or as foreplay. I understand that the church is trying to keep the sexual relations between a man and woman pure. But if you’re really doing things for each other’s pleasure, and ultimately the end result is unitive and procreative, I don’t see what the problem is… I don’t even know if what I read was a church teaching or if it was some extremely conservative Catholic’s opinion. But if the act ends as unitive and procreative, does it really make sense to worry about those other things? Unfortunately this has scared me out of the church for the time being… So any help or advice would be great… Thank you.

CaughtInWonder, I think you already show that you have a good understanding of the basis of Catholic sexual ethics. That is, sex must be unitive and open to procreation.

What you will find is that opinions on the specifics vary widely. Some take a view that anything goes as long as the finish is the man climaxing inside of his wife. Others will argue that certain acts are inherently wrong and not allowed.

You will find people prepared to argue very strongly either for or against anal foreplay. Doing a search on this forum will show numerous threads on the topic, many that go on for pages and pages. Ultimately, you will not find any official, clear Church teaching on this specific topic, nor any other particular acts of foreplay. So be wary of anyone who wants to impose a strong view on you either way, since the Church herself has not chosen to do so. If you know a priest you trust, you could discuss this topic further with him, although noting that even good priests will hold differing views.

Finally, please don’t let this issue be something that keeps you away from the Church. As noted, the Church does not actually choose to impose any strict rules on Catholics regarding their sexual activities, other than being procreative and unitive.

 

[CaughtInWonder]

CaughtInWonder, I think you already show that you have a good understanding of the basis of Catholic sexual ethics. That is, sex must be unitive and open to procreation.

What you will find is that opinions on the specifics vary widely. Some take a view that anything goes as long as the finish is the man climaxing inside of his wife. Others will argue that certain acts are inherently wrong and not allowed.

You will find people prepared to argue very strongly either for or against anal foreplay. Doing a search on this forum will show numerous threads on the topic, many that go on for pages and pages. Ultimately, you will not find any official, clear Church teaching on this specific topic, nor any other particular acts of foreplay. So be wary of anyone who wants to impose a strong view on you either way, since the Church herself has not chosen to do so. If you know a priest you trust, you could discuss this topic further with him, although noting that even good priests will hold differing views.

Finally, please don’t let this issue be something that keeps you away from the Church. As noted, the Church does not actually choose to impose any strict rules on Catholics regarding their sexual activities, other than being procreative and unitive.

This helps a lot… Thank you. I kind of thought that it might just be one of those things that everyone has a different, yet strong opinion on.
Once again, thanks.

 

[manualman]

The rules flow from the principles. The minutiae of the rules sometimes seem to make no sense if one doesn’t thoroughly understand the principles. And once you understand the principles, the rules become self evident. So skip the rules and go to the principles.

The most basic underlying principle of catholic sexual morality is that sexual intimacy, marriage and baby-makin’ are NOT distinct things. They are an interrelated ecosystem in which each element affects the other. Nearly every “peculiarly catholic” moral teaching on marriage, sex and babies has its roots in this reality of comprehensive human sexuality.

Our culture HATES this understanding. People today have so embraced the idea of total individualism and freedom of the will that they refuse to see the interconnectedness of it all because it conflicts with their WILLs. And in the idolatry of self, contradicting my will simply cannot be tolerated. People want marriage, sex and babies to be an ala carte menu in which we can mix and match according to our wills. It just isn’t. And as they say, you can’t break the moral law any more than you can break the laws of gravity. All you can do is suffer the consequences of trying.

There’s plenty more detail, of course, but once you understand the above bedrock principle, catholic moral teaching on all sorts of controversial things becomes clear: fornication/cohabitation, re-marriage, IVF, contraception, “gay marriage,” polygamy and so on. They all boil down to attempts to deconstruct human sexuality into smaller divisible components than can actually be divided without terrible consequences.

 

[Nelka]

As long as the marital act is unitive and ordered toward procreation, there shouldn’t be any problem at all.

Almost any perverted sexual act resulting in normal intercourse could come under that umbrella.

When you cut out all that other stuff you may realise that normal sex is better than it was when you had so much choice.

 

[CuriousInIL]

The only thing that is strictly prohibited is anal sex.

Do you have a citation to a definitive Church teaching on this point?

 

[HeteroDoxical]

I have come very close to taking the step of being confirmed in the church, but I just discovered, and am really struggling with the topic of what sexual acts are “permitted” within marriage. I understand that the sexual act must ultimately end (for the man) with climax inside of his wife. That makes sense to me. What I am struggling with is this: I recently read and saw people saying things such as places you can and can’t touch your wife or do with your wife during the sexual act, or as foreplay. I understand that the church is trying to keep the sexual relations between a man and woman pure. But if you’re really doing things for each other’s pleasure, and ultimately the end result is unitive and procreative, I don’t see what the problem is… I don’t even know if what I read was a church teaching or if it was some extremely conservative Catholic’s opinion. But if the act ends as unitive and procreative, does it really make sense to worry about those other things? Unfortunately this has scared me out of the church for the time being… So any help or advice would be great… Thank you.

Might as well argue over which hand to accept the bread at Eucharist. One is a sin, the other is the right one. How big a sip from the cup to take. Which knee must hit the ground first.

If a person is thinking of what is a sin, and not what is love, they will run in circles forever and never find God.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

Almost any perverted sexual act resulting in normal intercourse could come under that umbrella.

When you cut out all that other stuff you may realise that normal sex is better than it was when you had so much choice.

Perverted by who’s standards, the Church lady from SNL, yours, or God’s?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Almost any perverted sexual act resulting in normal intercourse could come under that umbrella.

When you cut out all that other stuff you may realise that normal sex is better than it was when you had so much choice.

You think so? I would think that a requirement for it to be unitive and pro-creative would cut out all (or dang near close to all) perverted acts. And I don’t believe we should get into the habit of treating “choice” as a bad word. Sin is a bad word, not choice.

 

[Brigid34]

It’s true that each sexual act must be agreed on by both partners (really-not just to say the “right” thing to the partner), Otherwise the person risks objectifying the other person, and also that person risks doing an act which is somewhat degrading.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I’ve never been able to understand how the pleasure derived from anal sex is anybody’s requirement of foreplay for regular sex. I think it is just degrading and unhealthy as it can be. It is perverse. Fecal matter is meant to be deposited in the toilet, not on the fingers or the tongue or the penis. If that’s SNL ultra conservative, I’m so happy to be ultra conservative.

Have some of the so-called Catholics in this forum forgotten about Natural Law teachings in the catechism?

 

[Galbin]

I’ve never been able to understand how the pleasure derived from anal sex is anybody’s requirement of foreplay for regular sex. I think it is just degrading and unhealthy as it can be. It is perverse. Fecal matter is meant to be deposited in the toilet, not on the fingers or the tongue or the penis. If that’s SNL ultra conservative, I’m so happy to be ultra conservative.

Have some of the so-called Catholics in this forum forgotten about Natural Law teachings in the catechism?

This!! Plus, anal sex predisposes you to all sorts of nasty infections. I had a friend who was pressured into it and she said it was a pain like no other. Furthermore, regular anal sex can lead to incontinence. So even if the church wasn’t against it, it is clear that biology is!