The Masons are like Boyscouts for Old Geezers and they have a lot of fun together.

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Abraxis,

Please post you last paragraph of your last post in the apologetics forum. Then prepare for 30 pages of disputation of that thesis.
 
Its not heretical nonsense. Besides I still have a deep respect for the Church. It is an important part of our society. The Masonry had nothing to do with my Gnosticism. We dont even discuss religions. Like I said you jump to conclusions in ignorance. Its easy to make up all sorts of wierd theories and attack what you dont know and dont understand.
 
Its not heretical nonsense. Besides I still have a deep respect for the Church. It is an important part of our society. The Masonry had nothing to do with my Gnosticism. We dont even discuss religions. Like I said you jump to conclusions in ignorance. Its easy to make up all sorts of wierd theories and attack what you dont know and dont understand.
Antinomianism
The heretical doctrine that Christians are exempt from the obligations of moral law. The term first came into use at the Protestant Reformation, when it was employed by Martin Luther to designate the teachings of Johannes Agricola and his secretaries, who, pushing a mistaken and perverted interpretation of the Reformer’s doctrine of justification by faith alone to a far-reaching but logical conclusion, asserted that, as good works do not promote salvation, so neither do evil works hinder it;

and, as all Christians are necessarily sanctified by their very vocation and profession, so as justified Christians, they are incapable of losing their spiritual holiness, justification, and final salvation by any act of disobedience to, or even by any direct violation of the law of God. This theory — for it was not, and is not necessarily, anything more than a purely theoretical doctrine, and many professors of Antinomianism, as a matter of fact, led, and lead, lives quite as moral as those of their opponents — was not only a more or less natural outgrowth from the distinctively Protestant principle of justification by faith, but probably also the result of an erroneous view taken with regard to the relation between the Jewish and Christian dispensations and the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. Doubtless a confused understanding of the Mosaic ceremonial precepts and the fundamental moral law embodied in the Mosaic code was to no small extent operative in allowing the conception of true Christian liberty to grow beyond all reasonable bounds, and to take the form of a theoretical doctrine of unlimited licentiousness.

Although the term designating this error came into use only in the sixteenth century, the doctrine itself can be traced in the teaching of the earlier heresies. Certain of the Gnostic sect — possibly, for example, Marcion and his followers, in their antithesis of the Old and New Testament, or the Carpoeratians, in their doctrine of the indifference of good works and their contempt for all human laws — held Antinomian or quasi-Antinomian views.

In any case, it is generally understood that Antinomianism was professed by more than one of the Gnostic schools. Several passages of the New Testament writings are quoted in support of the contention that even as early as Apostolic times it was found necessary to single out and combat this heresy in its theoretical or dogmatic as well as in its grosser and practical form. The indignant words of St. Paul in his Epistles to the Romans and to the Ephesians (Romans 3:8, 31; 6:1; Ephesians 5:6), as well as those of St. Peter, the Second Epistle (2 Peter 2:18, 19), seem to lend direct evidence in favour of this view. Forced into a somewhat doubtful prominence by the “slanderers” against whom the Apostle found it necessary to warn the faithful, persisting spasmodically in several of the Gnostic bodies, and possibly also colouring some of the tenets of the Abigenses, Antinomianism reappeared definitely, as a variant of the Protestant doctrine of faith, early in the history of the German Reformation
newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm

Antinomianism is the belief that Christians are liberated from the observance of moral laws when God’s grace is active. The belief was first attributed to St. Paul, who declared that his opponents “slanderously” had charged him with saying, “And why not do evil that good may come?” (Rom. 3:8).

Some proponents of early Gnosticism adopted a form of antinomianism in sexual matters, holding that people are accountable only in matters of the spirit. At the time of the Reformation, a few followers of Martin Luther took his concept of justification by faith alone to mean that the law had no bearing on the life of a Christian. In colonial America, charges of antinomianism were brought against Anne Hutchinson, who was banished from Massachusetts because of her beliefs

Such concepts had evidently begun in the apostles’ own day, as appears from the arguments and warnings in the epistles of the New Testament (see Romans 6, 8; 1 Peter 3:5). The term was first used during theReformation by Martin Luther to describe the opinions of the German preacher Johann Agricola. The Antinomian Controversy of this time, in which Luther took a very active part, terminated in 1540 in a retraction by Agricola. Views more extreme than his were afterward advocated by some of the English nonconformists and by the Anabaptists
mb-soft.com/believe/txn/antinomi.htm
 
There is no duplicity. There are no worship services. You dont know what you are talking about. The church doesnt like secret societies because they want to know what everybody is doing. Its none of the churches buisness anyway. It isnt about religion. The Knights of Columbus were formed as a response to Masonry. It is just like it but without the history and with a Catholic overtone. Dont tell me what it is and what it isnt when you arent a Mason. The truth is the Masons go back a long long way since before the time of Christ.

I say I am roman Catholic in the sense that i was confirmed a Catholic but within the past few years Ive been becoming more and more a Gnostic Christian. Thats why I said what I said. The church isnt always right about everything. Its just a human made institution to facilitate the understanding of the teachings of Christ. Christians dont really need it.
To engage in actions specifically prohibited by one’s church is to behave duplicitly toward that church. I understand that the mason’s expectations and requirements of their members are not the same as the Catholic Church’s expectations and requirements of her members. But they do know that these expectations and requirements are different and apparently do not care that this makes their members, if they are also members of the the Catholic Church or some other church that forbids masonic membership, behave in a dishonest and dishonorable manner toward their own church.

This is one way that the Catholic Church is different from freemasonry. For example, the Catholic Church does not forbid members of many Eastern Orthodox Churches and some other separated Churches from receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. But she also knows that these same separated Churches may forbid their members from receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church and asks that members of these churches respect their own discipline as the Catholic Church wishes those Christians not to behave duplicitously toward their own Churches.

You are correct that I am not a freemason. As to whether there are any worship services within masonry, you are correct that I don’t know if there are any, but you will also kindly note that I never claimed there were any. The motive you ascribe to the church for frobiding the faithful from being members of secret societies is incorrect.

You are correct that the Knights of Columbus was formed, in part, as a response to freemasonry, but your assertion that it is just like freemasonry with a different history and a Catholic overtone is incorrect, unless by “just like” you mean the two societies share certain inconsequential characteristics such as both are men’s organizations, both have local and central organizational structures, etc. There is no historical evidence that I am aware of that links modern masonic organizations with events before Christ, but if you meant to say that persons with knowledge and skill in the use of shaped stone for construction predate the first century I think you will not find disagreement.

Leopard, KC 4th, PGK.
 
I have no arguement with any of you. I honestly dont. It seems like though you’d like to try and dissect my beliefs which is fine by me. I respect the Church for what it is, but quite honestly I challenge it as an institution, I challenge the books it arrogantly selected for the Bible, and I challenge the erroneous understanding of Old Testament mythology. The Church purposefully left out key information simply because it was easier to evagelize the masses with a central institution rather than with unorganized small groups. Thats a fact.
 
As far the Masonry goes, nothing I do in Masonry directly conflicts with the Roman Catholic Church other than the fact that I am not supposed to be there. It isnt Satanic, it isnt Protestant, it isnt heretical. All we try to accomplish is to make men better than they are. Thats all.
 
As far the Masonry goes, nothing I do in Masonry directly conflicts with the Roman Catholic Church other than the fact that I am not supposed to be there. It isnt Satanic, it isnt Protestant, it isnt heretical. All we try to accomplish is to make men better than they are. Thats all.
Q: What is the Catholic Church’s official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?

A: Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.

Masonry is a parallel religion to Christianity. The New Catholic Encyclopedia states, “Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward or punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiation and burial rites” (vol. 6, p. 137).

Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry - secrets which are trivial and already well-known - he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).

Historically, one of Masonry’s primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men’s club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)

The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church’s prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9306qq.asp
 
I have no arguement with any of you. I honestly dont. It seems like though you’d like to try and dissect my beliefs which is fine by me. I respect the Church for what it is, but quite honestly I challenge it as an institution, I challenge the books it arrogantly selected for the Bible, and I challenge the erroneous understanding of Old Testament mythology. The Church purposefully left out key information simply because it was easier to evagelize the masses with a central institution rather than with unorganized small groups. Thats a fact.
And when Jesus said, “…and upon this Rock I shall build my Church” He meant what?

:signofcross: Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen
 
Masonry is in no way a religion. Its prayers are of a general sense, sort of like saying God bless you all and a moment of silence. I findit funny that saying Masonry is trivial yet if it was so trivial then why would there be the harshest penalty the Church has against it. Why excommunication? if its so trivial it wouldnt very much matter now would it.

Jesus also said:
"Know ye then the Beggining so that you inquire about the End? For where the Beginning is there shall be the End. Blessed is the man who stands at the Beginning, for he shall know the End, and he shall not taste death.
 
I have no arguement with any of you. I honestly dont. It seems like though you’d like to try and dissect my beliefs which is fine by me. I respect the Church for what it is, but quite honestly I challenge it as an institution, I challenge the books it arrogantly selected for the Bible, and I challenge the erroneous understanding of Old Testament mythology. The Church purposefully left out key information simply because it was easier to evagelize the masses with a central institution rather than with unorganized small groups. Thats a fact.
I challenge your superficial knowledge of the tenants of Freemasonry and the way it has shaped the last few hundred years of world history. Perhaps some of it for the better, but it is certainly more than an old men’s social club. Yes, many see it today as just another networking tool. But, as the P2 conspiracy shows, Freemansonry has in some instances been used as an immoral means to an end even in recent times.
 
How can you challenge something you dont know? Are you a Mason?

Its not for old men either Im 25 years old.
 
I sincerely can’t understand why there is this any problem with this group. It’s just a fun social club for old farts, it appears to me.
There’s a big problem about masons. They are in fact satanists but of course they will never ever admit it. Popes many times forbade membership in masonic organisations. Some masons may be ignorant about the real character of masonery but top ones know it very well. Keep away from them.
 
How can you challenge something you dont know? Are you a Mason?

Its not for old men either Im 25 years old.
Abraxis, when you are posting in response to something said by a specific person, it is always a good idea to hit the quote ‘button’ at the lower right of that person’s post so we know what it is you are speaking to.
 
How can you challenge something you dont know? Are you a Mason?

Its not for old men either Im 25 years old.
The “old” part is a reference to the thread title. As for my right to challenge freemasonry, one only has to be a student of history to know the role of freemasonry since the Enlightenment. As well, I am a convert to Catholicism from a mixed Catholic and Baptist family. Most of the Baptist men in my family have been masons. Yes, even a Catholic or two in my family has been initiated into the Craft because when they immigrated to my small, Southern hometown it was the only way to get an “in” into the commercial activity of the community.

I never gave it much thought while I was Baptist. I saw masons as a remnant of a heroic group from times past who played an important part in the shaping of American history. Most of the prominent men in my church were masons. I just never was interested b/c I figured it cost money-something I didn’t really have much of until recently. 😛
 
From the original charter of the Militia Immaculata:
I. Purpose of the Knights. Pursue the conversion of every person caught up in sin, heresy, schism and especially Freemasonry, and the growth in holiness of all persons, under the sponsorship and through the meditation of the B.V.M. Immaculate.
II. Conditions for Membership. 1. Make a voluntary and total oblation of oneself to the B.V.M. Immaculate as an instrument in her most holy hands. 2. Carry or wear the “Miraculous Medal.” Have one’s name placed on the register of the Pious Union of Rome at the Primary Center, or at any canonically erected Affiliated Center.
III. Means of the Apostlate. 1. Offer insistently once a day, if possible, the ejaculatory prayer: “O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you, and for all those who do not have recourse to you, especially for the Freemasons”;…
Also, article 34 of Humanum Genus, Encyclical on Freemasonry:
  1. Wherefore, not without cause do We use this occasion to state again what We have stated elsewhere, namely, that the Third Order of St. Francis, whose discipline We a little while ago prudently mitigated, should be studiously promoted and sustained; for the whole object of this Order, as constituted by its founder, is to invite men to an imitation of Jesus Christ, to a love of the Church, and to the observance of all Christian virtues; and therefore it ought to be of great influence in suppressing the contagion of wicked societies. Let, therefore, this holy sodality be strengthened by a daily increase. Amongst the many benefits to be expected from it will be the great benefit of drawing the minds of men to liberty, fraternity, and equality of right; not such as the Freemasons absurdly imagine, but such as Jesus Christ obtained for the human race and St. Francis aspired to: the liberty, We mean, of sons of God, through which we may be free from slavery to Satan or to our passions, both of them most wicked masters; the fraternity whose origin is in God, the common Creator and Father of all; the equality which, founded on justice and charity, does not take away all distinctions among men, but, out of the varieties of life, of duties, and of pursuits, forms that union and that harmony which naturally tend to the benefit and dignity of society.
Does anyone know of any additional associations or orders that have been explicitely constituted or exhorted to convert, oppose, or otherwise fumigate Freemasons? Where else can I get some of that mason-be-gone? :knight2:
 
harmless? think again! take a look here at what Pope Leo XIII said:

Humanum Genus
Ah yes, the all so benevelent Freemasons. Well in the USA and England one could claim they were “harmless” (exept for maybe the affiliation with some Masons and the KKK) but in Europe and Latin America they have had their hand in many of it’s athiest/anti-Catholic movements.

St. Maximilian Kolbe was a first hand witness to this, that’s part of what inspired him to form the Miltitia Immaculatae.

“In the years leading up to the war, the masonic ‘clique’, disapproved of on several occasions by the Sovereign Pontiffs, governed in Rome, the capital of Christianity, with ever greater impudence. It did not even hesitate to brandish in the streets of the City during the festivities in honour of Giordano Bruno, a black flag showing the Archangel Saint Michael beneath the feet of Lucifer; still less did they hesitate to brandish masonic insignia beneath the windows of the Vatican. A reckless hand felt no repugnance in writing: Satan will rule in the Vatican and the Pope will serve him in the uniform of a Swiss Guard, and other things of that kind. This mortal hatred for the Church of Jesus Christ and for His Vicar was not just a prank on the part of deranged individuals, but a systematic action proceeding from the principle of Freemasonry: Destroy all religion, whatever it may be, especially the Catholic religion.” - Fr. Kolbe in 1939
 
There are two basic schools or kinds of Freemasonry:
  1. The Continental European or Grand Orient system. These are overtly anti-clerical and anti-church.
  2. The British or Grand Lodge system–that practiced in the USA. They are not overtly anti-Church, which makes them more dangerous.
Probably the most dangerous group of Masons are the Shriners. Their whole schtuecke is pretending to be Moslems. The various buzz words they use would be taken as evidence of having become Moslem in a Moslem country.

The principal danger, of course, are the spiritual dangers to which they are exposing themselves.
 
I cannot atest to the shriners because I am not one. I can say though that religion and politics are usually taboo subjects that we do not discuss in meetings because of the belief that many people think we go around and create conspiracy. In all true honesty gentlemen, it is really harmless. In every meetings that I have ever gone, no one has ever said anything about conspiracy, religous practice, politcal power struggles, or anything like that at all. My father was a Mason and so was his father on down the line for many generations. We are a Catholic family for the most part with Spanish heritage. I am telling yall in total honesty I have never seen or heard any of the things that you have labeled it.
 
There is no duplicity. There are no worship services. You dont know what you are talking about…
…As to whether there are any worship services within masonry, you are correct that I don’t know if there are any, but you will also kindly note that I never claimed there were any.
To be quite clear, Masons DO hold Easter Services. Google: “Scottish rite Easter Service” for listings of when and where they will be held in a town near you!

You can also go to: stichtingargus.nl/scottishrom.html

Where you can get the texts - from the Scotish Rite Masons - this is their website for:

Special Ceremonies : Memorial Services, Kadosh Midnight Burials Service and the Maundy Thursday and Easter Sunday Services

Do I believe that the old guys who like to put on a fez and drive mini-cars in parades are Evil men plotting some new-world order? No. I think it is pretty accurate to say they are harmless.

Do I think that at the higher levels it gets pretty nasty? Yes.

Is there a strong, bloody and radical anti-Catholic component to Masons that should make any Catholic cringe? Ask Bl. Miguel Pro.

You are right, it is possible to be a Mason and a Catholic. So long as your comfortable with being a Catholic of the excommunicated variety!
 
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