The Masons

[hn160]

I would say that’s a fair assessment.

If you do know of a Catholic or a friend that’s a Mason - as a Mason, here’s what you should be alert for:

1. If they put Masonry ahead of the Church - while I don’t agree with the teaching, I’ve stopped going to my masonic lodge as frequently (we met once a month) because my own church (LCMS) has as prohibition against it. I would not become an ‘officer’ in the Lodge for example. I probably wont give up the Lodge entirely, but that’s my failing.
2. If they’ve joined a lodge that isn’t American, British, Canadian, or Prince Hall. Spanish/Mexican and South American, and European lodges can be VERY dangerous.
3. They miss their Sunday Mass obligations or stop going to church to go to Masonic events. Masonry should be a distant adjunct to someone’s life.
4. They take it too seriously - I’ll tell you the one of the Masonic passwords if I meet you n person and can whisper it in your ear. You’ve heard it before and it’s kinda fun to but two and two together.
5. Personally, I think the biggest danger to a Mason is to perhaps start thinking that religions are coequal. The part of our ritual that has to go with ‘god’ is so small, but there is a risk there.

As an aside, the fact that I’m even Christian is because of my Lodge - one of the oaths you take is to ‘frequent the house of worship.’ While I was a nominal theist, I did start going to church in because of my Masonic oaths. That my journey as a Christian led to a church that prohibits Masonry is a bit of amusement for me.

When I gave up my membership in the Masons, I had mixed feelings about it. The Founding Fathers of our country most of them were Masons, although most were also Dietists. Although the Masons do a lot of civil good, I can see the Missouri Synod position on the Masons because of syncretism. As someone stated, there is an altar in the center of the room with an open Bible with an open compass and square on it. These represents the symbolic meaning on how we are to live our lives. But when they pray in the lodge, it is to a generic god that anyone of any faith can agree to except Muslims.

 

[englishredrose]

It just a social club for rich men to go and have lots of meals and religion and politics are left outside the door. No big deal in that is there apart from expensive meals especially if you’re the chair for the year:shrug:

 

[1AugustSon7]

Masons take historic oaths that have rather dire consequences for telling anybody the ‘secrets’ of Freemasonry - in modern times, nobody takes them seriously, but they are quite horrid sounding.

Not taking oaths seriously? I’m not sure which is worse: making oaths to strangers wherein a man promises to be effectively complicit in his own murder, or making grave oaths and not taking them seriously.

 

[1AugustSon7]

It just a social club for rich men to go and have lots of meals and religion and politics are left outside the door. No big deal in that is there apart from expensive meals especially if you’re the chair for the year:shrug:

They are by no means necessarily rich.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The Church was not always against Freemasonry. Mozart, who was a devout Catholic during the age of Enlightenment, joined the Freemasons, and it is from thier ideas and imagery that he created the opera “The Magic Flute”.

Below is an interesting excerpt from:
operabrooklyn.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Mozart-Essay.pdf

The decade between 1780 and 1790 opened a brief but
crucial window in the history of Freemasonry within the
context of the Age of Enlightenment. Freemasonry, which
had its roots in the Medieval period but was not codified
until the early 1700s was, in the words of historian A.F.
Robbins, “an organized system of morality… veiled in
allegory, and illustrated by symbol.” Both Freemasonry
and the Enlightenment philosophy shared similar notions
of rational thought and scientific inquiry. Further, because
things are often not exactly as they might first appear, the
seeker of answers had to search deeply and thoroughly for
the ultimate truth.
Historically, the Catholic Church had been diametrically
opposed to Freemasonry , having long banned the
Brotherhood, deeming it too dangerous a competitive
secular force to its religious tenets. In contradistinction,
Freemasonry accepted members of all races and creeds
without exception, and still does. Despite the Church’s
extreme position, which was made crystal clear to the
populace through a series of papal bulls, it was difficult for
each city-state to police these edicts. In Vienna in
particular, then part of the Hapsburg empire, the Empress
Maria Theresa supported the ban (despite the fact that her
husband, Francis I, was both Holy Roman Emperor AND a
Masonic Lodge Master !). However, it was their son and
successor, Joseph II, who came to the throne in 1780, who
was the more " enlightened" ruler and who relaxed this
proscription, becoming a Freemason himself. The window
would soon close again in the late 1780s, with the Church
reasserting its ban on the Lodges, and Leopold II,
(Joseph II’s son, who began to feel threatened by
the Enlightened ideas of Freemasonry) agreeing to
enforce a shut down.

It was in that momentarily tolerant atmosphere that
Mozart, a devout Catholic, also decided to become a
Freemason, joining several of his closest friends in the
Vienna lodge Zur Wohltätigkeit (“Beneficence”) in
December, 1784. Mozart’s choice of Lodge was not
random; “Beneficence” was the Lodge which served as a
“trial balloon” for Viennese Catholics who wanted to
embrace Freemasonry.

 

[benjohnson]

Not taking oaths seriously? I’m not sure which is worse: making oaths to strangers wherein a man promises to be effectively complicit in his own murder, or making grave oaths and not taking them seriously.

There is such thing as poetic license. Keep in mind, you’re putting more stock in Freemasonry that even I do as a member - it’s a fraternity and nothing more.

I’m sure there’s Masons that take the “blood-oath” seriously, but we would have to call them crazy.

But let’s say I’m not correct, we can test this. I’ll go ahead and test this blood oath by ‘exposing’ a Masonic ‘secret’ word: “Tubal Cain”

If I get murdered in the next few days at low tide with my throat slit, I’ll tell you.

 

[pnewton]

The Church was not always against Freemasonry. Mozart, who was a devout Catholic during the age of Enlightenment,.

I do not think one can take some guy being a Mason and a Catholic as evidence of anything. Today, we have Catholic politicians that are pro-abortion. This does reflect on the Church’s position on abortion anymore that some Catholic being a Mason reflects on the Church’s position of Freemasonry.

 

[peace2u2]

Not taking oaths seriously? I’m not sure which is worse: making oaths to strangers wherein a man promises to be effectively complicit in his own murder, or making grave oaths and not taking them seriously.

I agree and unfortunately upon reading about Freemasonry, the man would put a curse on himself and his family when taking those oaths.

Interesting reads:

sanctepater.com/2012/03/why-catholics-cant-be-masons.html

christianhealingmin.org/newsletter/archives/deliverance/A_Need_to_be_Free.php

 

[maltmom]

There is such thing as poetic license. Keep in mind, you’re putting more stock in Freemasonry that even I do as a member - it’s a fraternity and nothing more.

I’m sure there’s Masons that take the “blood-oath” seriously, but we would have to call them crazy.

But let’s say I’m not correct, we can test this. I’ll go ahead and test this blood oath by ‘exposing’ a Masonic ‘secret’ word: “Tubal Cain”

If I get murdered in the next few days at low tide with my throat slit, I’ll tell you.

Are you still with us?

 

[ffg]

Not sure how secret a name can be when it’s in a list of Masonic words and Phrases available with a quick google search…

mwphglwa.org/TopLiners/Study%20and%20References/Words&Phrases.htm

The home page to that site seems to be a lodge in Seattle.

Interesting info on the subject matter of the thread.

 

[benjohnson]

Are you still with us?

-]Please call the police/-]

Yes, it is I, Mr. Ben Johnson, and I am still alive. Thank you for your concern, and please disregard the previous post that Mr. Ben Johnson posted.

 

[benjohnson]

Not sure how secret a name can be when it’s in a list of Masonic words and Phrases available with a quick google search…

mwphglwa.org/TopLiners/Study%20and%20References/Words&Phrases.htm

The home page to that site seems to be a lodge in Seattle.

Interesting info on the subject matter of the thread.

If you’re wondering why some of the words there have a Christian meaning, it’s because they come from York Rite / Knights Templar parts of Masonry that require their members to be Christian.

I didn’t give away a ‘big secret’ out of respect for the Lodge, but any ‘secret’ in Masonry is available online with a Google search. The annoying bit is that 80% of what you’ll find is just crazy talk.

Without vouching for the accuracy (remember I’m not supposed to give away the secrets), this link is substantially like the first initiation that a outsider would encounter in joining a Masonic Lodge.

sacred-texts.com/mas/morgan/morg04.htm

They get progressively more interesting as you go higher and higher - they’re more like passion plays. Frankly, I wish they were open - not only are they interesting and historic, but it would cut down on the conspiracy theories, and more importantly, cut down any attempt to create a mock-religion out of them.

 

[maltmom]

-]Please call the police/-]

Yes, it is I, Mr. Ben Johnson, and I am still alive. Thank you for your concern, and please disregard the previous post that Mr. Ben Johnson posted.

I knew you would be.

 

[ffg]

Interesting information. Thanks Ben.

I did notice at the bottom of that Glossary I found, there was a link to a page with ‘ancient ceromony’ texts. It does look / read basically like play scripts, but I would disagree with the effect on a person. I don’t think some or a lot of people ‘take it too seriously’ as others laugh it off.

It’s intent is to be taken quite serious. So those that do so are doing what is expected for the group. This is what makes it a problem.

I would also disagree that “opening” the doors would bring the critism down. Obviously here we are assuming nothing changes, just open the doors.

If the organization didn’t change due to being more visible the intent of the rituals would shine bright.

It would only bring more criticism if all aspects were continued with the same intent.

However silly and artsy it seems, it’s obviously meaningful as it earns your respect and has (had?) you bound through the oath, or through fear. I’m sure in the lodge it is common speak to laugh away how silly it is after a ritual and during refreshments (‘Ah, you made it through Brother!’). Exactly the intent in bondage, do so gently, squeeze slowly.

It’s human nature to search for meaning and guidance in life, but when that leads you down a path where you are calling another human ‘Worshipful Master’ you’ve become a slave to something that is not healthy.

Yes it does sound silly, but is carefully scripted and used I’m guessing without silly laughter. I’m sure the intent is clear.

The Officer initiation was an interesting read, but absolutely should be thought of in the context of men really believing the intent which makes the words very powerful and takes free men and binds them.

That 2 cents turned into a quarter.

Take care,

 

[benjohnson]

Interesting information. Thanks Ben.

It’s human nature to search for meaning and guidance in life, but when that leads you down a path where you are calling another human ‘Worshipful Master’ you’ve become a slave to something that is not healthy.

…

That 2 cents turned into a quarter.

Take care,

That’s a very fair and wise critique - and I can’t say I disagree too much. I do think some have taken it way too seriously, in that some have used the rituals as an (name removed by moderator)ut to their religion (Latter Day Saints for example)

I think opening up the rituals would also do two things - preserve their history (our membership is down), and open them up to honest critique.

The oaths that Masons do take rather seriously are nothing to be ashamed of - work hard, have prudence, go to your house of worship. The fraternal oaths, I hope, nobody takes seriously.

A lot of the terms in Masonry are absolutely nuts when taken out of the Lodge - the phrase Worshipful Master is two parts - the ‘worshipful’ comes from how you address old Judges in times past, and Master refers to title rather than a master/slave relationship.

Thanks for honest dialog and, like I always say, if you’re interested in silly rituals, hats, brotherhood and charity check out the Catholic Knights of Columbus.

 

[gamewell45]

Speaking as a Mason - there’s several things that could very well make it incompatible.

Masons take historic oaths that have rather dire consequences for telling anybody the ‘secrets’ of Freemasonry - in modern times, nobody takes them seriously, but they are quite horrid sounding.

We requite members to have a belief in a monotheistic god so that the vows we take to be better men have some sort of consequence. Because we don’t specify Christ, we could be guilty of the heresy of thinking that all “gods” are equivalent. We have Mormon, protestant, Catholic, Muslim members.

Masonry can look like a religion - we have rituals, hats, symbols so it’s easy to see why this is the case.

Masonry started when the Knights Templar were disbanded by one of the Avignon Popes - so there’s a bit of history there. It’s a rather bloody history.

I’ll also add that Masonry as practiced in the European continent can be very very anti Catholic and anti religion - it’s basically, depending on where you are, a cult of crazies or a secret benefit society, or a weird combination of both.

Even though we have several Catholic members in our Masonic Lodge, unless you have some overriding need to be a Mason, I highly recommend that you join the very Catholic Knights of Columbus if you have a need for silly hats, charity, ritual, brotherhood, and the sort of thing that Masons provide.

You can then rest easy at night.

(PS. The Pope isn’t a Mason. If someone tells you that, then ignore them, in my opinion they’re confused.)

As a Freemason, I was told before I became a Freemason that it was not a religion nor a substitute for religion. Everyone is encouraged to be steadfast in the faith of their acceptance.

Approximately 40% of my lodge is composed of those of the Roman Catholic faith; one of them is also a member of the knights of columbus as well.

 

[peace2u2]

I’m sure in the lodge it is common speak to laugh away how silly it is after a ritual and during refreshments (‘Ah, you made it through Brother!’). Exactly the intent in bondage, do so gently, squeeze slowly.

It’s human nature to search for meaning and guidance in life, but when that leads you down a path where you are calling another human ‘Worshipful Master’ you’ve become a slave to something that is not healthy.

your post made me think of the serpent in the garden of eden…

 

[ffg]

This is great. Thanks Ben and Gamewell.

I do have the intention to respond / discuss further, I just can’t right now.

Take care,

 

[1AugustSon7]

There is such thing as poetic license…

THAT. That amoral apologetic habit of Freemasonry is exactly why I will never become a Mason nor believe for one minute that it actually takes good men and makes them better.

No good man poo-poo’s the seriousness of oaths, let alone oaths with a grave subject matter. That’s evidence of a corruption of the soul; it cannot but vitiate all true religion and religious instinct.

Imagine Christians reducing their baptismal vows to “poetic license.” No! The call to even martyrdom that is included in Baptism is not an allegory or reducible to mere “poetic license”.

You took an oath. An oath that by its (inherently criminal) nature is non-binding in objective moral reality, except that oaths -even those that cannot truly bind a man- also by their very nature bind the human conscience. In reconciling this dilemma you do injustice to the seriousness and sometimes even practical necessity of oaths (e.g., for maintaining law and order and defending human society), and simultaneously propagate the swearing of inherently evil, criminal and vicious oath. The result is a sort of moral anarchy.

 

[benjohnson]

THAT. That amoral apologetic habit of Freemasonry is exactly why I will never become a Mason nor believe for one minute that it actually takes good men and makes them better.

Don’t worry, Mason’s don’t recruit. You have to initiate the conversation with a Mason, and you specifically have to ask without prompting.

Without belaboring your polemics, there are certain parts (most) of the Masonic ritual where you are an actor in a play. To take the blood oaths as serious is nuts, especially as a candidate in the ritual you are told beforehand that the blood oaths are emblematic of trust and certainly not literal.