The Mass and Protestant Services very different

[Franciscan]

I’m still sort of new to the Catholic Faith. But as I learn more about it, i find that the Mass differs greatly from protestant services in more than just liturgy/no liturgy, communion/no communion, and just stuff like that. But the main thing I find that differs between the two is that Catholics go to Mass to worship God and to only Worship God, of course there is a homily or sermon, but the Eucharist is the main reason for the Mass, to offer Jesus back to God, because it is the only thing that pleases Him because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. But Protestants go to church to worship in a much more different way. Most of them go to feel good, to get ‘recharged’ in their faith, to get something out of the sermon, to hear the good music, to socialize and so on… So what i get is that Catholics to go church to give to God, and protestants to go church to get from God. Am I the only one that thinks this? Am I totally wrong? Please lend me your thoughts on this Thank you!

HeathK, your analysis is correct. Sadly, as a non-Catholic you understand the nature of the Mass better than alot of Catholics. Many Catyholics are under the impressio0n that they are going for entertainment. This is a result of alot of factors, one is a misunderstanding and misapplication of the Vat II document on the liturgy.
In the Mass we are supposed to have vertical worship oriented to God through the sacrificial offering.
Last pouint the scriptures from Able on have examples of ooffering sacrifice as the primary type of worship sanctiopned by none other than God Himself. The irony is that ‘Bible only’ churches worship unbiblically.

 

[estesbob]

Since Vatican II there has been a great deal of dialogue between Rome and the mainline Protestant denominations that have resulted in these Protestant churches modifying their liturgies so as to more mirror that of the Mass. Also, the frequency of Holy Communion has increased substantially in those denominations. Likewise, the Revised Common Lectionary (used by these mainline churches) is almost the same as that used by Rome. It has been exciting to me that whether one attends an RC church or a Methodist one, the same scriptures are being read.

Moreover, Anglo-Catholics and high church Lutherans have a very strong devotion to the Eucharist and celebrate the Sacrament at least once a week. Indeed, the Mass celebrated by traditional Anglicans resembles the old Tridentine Mass (except that it is in English) more than it does the Novus Ordo.

The differnce being that none of them have the Real Real Presence in their Eucharist. I see your point , however, and must admit when I think of Protestant servoces i usually think of evangelical services. When my wife was Episcopalean I used to attend their services and found them to be reverent and very close to the Catholic Mass.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m still sort of new to the Catholic Faith. But as I learn more about it, i find that the Mass differs greatly from protestant services in more than just liturgy/no liturgy, communion/no communion, and just stuff like that. !

/quote]

I don’t think any generalizations about “Protestant worship” will hold up under examination. There are many denominations and many styles of worship within denominations. It can vary be denomination, by pastor, by congregation, geography etc.

Some mainline denominations like Episcopal or Lutheran may look identical to a Catholic Mass, and you might find yourself going out to check the sign outside to see what church you are in.

Others may be all over the map from sermon plus communion service, to pentecostal, to praise and worship consisting mosting of singing and witnessing.

I don’t think you can make any general statement that will be true of all protestants in general.

 

[TobyLue]

Father Larry Richards strongly states that we are not supposed to go to Mass to “get anything out of it” but to “give our lives” over to God! I totally agree!

While it is true that we are not supposed to go to Mass to get anything out of it, when you look at it we do actually “get more” than what we actually give. God gives Himself to us in the form of bread and wine which we consume and that is totally mind-boggling, and awesome, that the Almighty, All knowing, Everlasting God has given Himself to us, and to be in us. Yes, we don’t go there to feel good because of the sermon, or the music or the socializing, entertainment, etc. We give our lives over completely to God, worship Him, thank Him, and what does He do? He says, “Take and eat”. Totally awesome!!! Can’t find that in anyplace but the CC.

 

[RHooker]

The differnce being that none of them have the Real Real Presence in their Eucharist.

There have been quite a number of former Episcopal priests who have become Roman Catholic priests by way of the Pastoral Provision. Though all of them are truly orthodox in their beliefs I don’t know any who have said that the many Masses they celebrated as Episcopalians lacked the Real Presence. I don’t believe God to be that capricious so as not to effect Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation to the millions of Christians who have come to receive Christ’s Body and Blood. Jesus is a loving Savior who wants to communicate himself to his followers despite any defects found in the celebrant. That is why the Church denounced the Donatist heresy of the 4th century.

 

[allischalmers]

You also get exposed to a whole lot more Scripture at the Mass than you do at Protestant services.

That may be so ,but we have Sunday School and Wednesday night Bible studies so on the whole we protestants at least Baptist hear and read a lot more Scripture in church than Catholics do.
Also we Baptist go to Church to praise and to worship God and our Lord Jesus Christ. We praise God with hynms and songs. We worship God with prayer and scripture reading and study. We also worship God by serving him where we are needed in the Church. We give back to God a portion of what he has given us and we give back to Him our whole life 100% so that He may use us in what ever way will glorfy Him. We are not about ourselfs but glorfying God. Lastly our worship is sincere and from our heart.

Proud to Be Baptist
allischalmers

 

[gcnuss]

Scott,

Is it true that, in some Luthern churches, after ‘communion’ any leftovers of ‘bread’ and ‘wine’ are discarded?
If Luther taught or re-affirmed the true presence, why do some churches not adhere to that teaching?

While I have heard of congregations in which the remaining elements are discarded, I have not been associated with any that do so. I certainly would not condone it. We use the remaining elements to take communion to the homebound.

For some Lutherans, Luther’s teachings are not held in the highest esteem. For those who are, to some extent, anti-Catholic, they write off any of Luther’s teaching that they think are “too catholic,” ignoring the fact that Luther really wanted to remain a Catholic when he began his protest against certain abuses in the church.

Peace,
Pastor Gary

 

[ComradeAndrei]

There have been quite a number of former Episcopal priests who have become Roman Catholic priests by way of the Pastoral Provision. Though all of them are truly orthodox in their beliefs I don’t know any who have said that the many Masses they celebrated as Episcopalians lacked the Real Presence. I don’t believe God to be that capricious so as not to effect Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation to the millions of Christians who have come to receive Christ’s Body and Blood. Jesus is a loving Savior who wants to communicate himself to his followers despite any defects found in the celebrant. That is why the Church denounced the Donatist heresy of the 4th century.

Good protestants in a liturgical ecclesial group (like the Episcopalians) might be able to make a spiritual communion of sorts, but it would be utterly impossible for a man who is not a priest (as per Apostolicae Curae) to effect the Sacrament.

The issue has nothing in common with Donatism because that would be saying that a truly ordained priest would not be able to confect the Sacrament because he sinned mortally. If you don’t have an ordained priest (or bishop) then you don’t have the Eucharist. The defect isn’t a major sin on behalf of the celebrant, it is rather that he isn’t even ordained in the first place.

We consider Eastern Orthodox or the SSPX orders to be completely valid but canonically illicit and even at the initial breaks, we never considered those priests and bishops unable to say the Divine Liturgy/Mass, ordain (by bishops), hear confessions etc.

 

[rbarcia]

Not true. Worshipping to me means to sacrifice my life for God just as Jesus did. In our Worship Mass we make present the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ as God the Father is very pleased with His son.

How is this a sacrifice on your part. Are you suffering or giving something up.

No we’re not superior and no one here said that we were, especially not the original poster!

But it is what we are supposed to do… to give of ourselves instead of trying to “get something out of” the service or to “get entertained.”

What exactly did you give, I thought you say you received Him.

I am sure there are some people who seriously feel they worship God in Protestant services.

He is pleased with His Son Jesus Christ. So the Catholic Mass makes present the one and only sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Sacrifice is always present to the Lord so we take advantage of that fact and we do as Jesus commanded of us. We already know what God likes better as He is pleased with the Sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ! So I am sticking with being Catholic and going to our wonderful Catholic Mass.

So you offering Jesus to the Father is a sacrifice on your part?

That’s not to say that He doesn’t like some Protestant services. I don’t know this either way. But I’m sure He knows what’s in their hearts.

I do not see where you are giving to God? The very nature of the mass is your receiving something, not giving.

You state you are offering something to God.

Except that Jesus is the one who offered Himself for the us. But what is sacrificial about the service on the part of the catholic? Is the catholic giving up something, suffering during the mass?

Would you rather be somewhere else, and therefore it is a sacrifice.

I see nothing the catholic offers God at all. I see the catholic just going to receive, just in a different format.

 

[AlegreFe]

Sandy,

Here are a few quotes from the Book of Concord, a collection of the confessional documents of the Lutheran church:
…
Peace,
Pastor Gary

I realize that Lutherans believe in the real presence. But the question is how did Luther believe Jesus to be present in the host? Luther believed that Jesus was present along side the host and not fully present with just the appearance of the host or the accidents left.
**
3**. Luther & Consubstantiation/Sacramentalism –
Consubstantiation: the actual substantial presence
and combination of the body and blood of Christ with
the eucharistic bread and wine according to a teaching
associated with Martin Luther (Merriam-Webster’s
Dictionary).]
Sacramentalism: belief in or use of sacramental
rites, acts, or objects; specif.: belief that the sacraments
are inherently efficacious and necessary for salvation
(Merriam - Webster’s Dictionary).]

The Sacrament of the Altar: The Simple Way a Father
Should Present it to his Household.

I. Q. What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
A. It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ under
bread and wine for us Christians to eat and to drink,
established by Christ Himself.

III. Q. What good does this eating and drinking do?
A. These words tell us: “Given for you” and “Shed for you to
forgive sins.” Namely, that the forgiveness of sins, life and
salvation are given to us through these words in the
sacrament. Because, where sins are forgiven, there is life and
salvation as well.

IV. Q. How can physical eating and drinking do such
great things?
A. Of course, eating and drinking do not do these things.
These words, written here, do them: “given for you” and “shed
for you to forgive sins.” These words, along with physical
eating and drinking are the important part of the sacrament.
Anyone who believes these words has what they say and
what they record, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Obviously, another of the Roman Catholic “means of grace”
carried over into Lutheranism. (An interesting note: in the book
Huldrych Zwingli: His Life and Work, the author noted that the
disagreement between Zwingli and Luther over the Lord’s
supper had deeper roots than simply the presence of the Lord
in the elements. Luther clung to his consubstantiation view
because, “According to Luther, ‘Only the real presence
guarantees the Lord’s Supper as a means to transmit
salvation’” (p. 132).

The way that the Catholic Church sees it is that the host or bread in a Lutheran or Anglican church does not contain the real presence of our Lord Jesus Christ because the pastors are not in line with the Apostles. There is no valid ordination for priesthood in those churches and therefore the real presence does not exist.

What I believe is that if a Lutheran or Anglican person truly believes in the real presence who knows what kind of graces God can give that person. I do believe that God knows the hearts of many in other churches that are not Catholic. But that is not to say the real presence of Jesus is there.

… hey, Fr. Larry Richards is on Relevant Radio right now and he’s talking about the Mass!! (Saturday 7:00 - 8:00 PM Central)

 

[AlegreFe]

Since Vatican II there has been a great deal of dialogue between Rome and the mainline Protestant denominations that have resulted in these Protestant churches modifying their liturgies so as to more mirror that of the Mass. Also, the frequency of Holy Communion has increased substantially in those denominations. Likewise, the Revised Common Lectionary (used by these mainline churches) is almost the same as that used by Rome. It has been exciting to me that whether one attends an RC church or a Methodist one, the same scriptures are being read.

That’s great and everything so why not just become Catholic?

I am not trying to offend any protestant person here. Just because the frequency of Holy Communion has increased substantially in some denominations does not mean that Jesus is truly and substantially present in the bread in those denominations.

And just because the readings are the same does not make the worship any more satisfying to God the Father. God is most greatly pleased with the sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. Those protestant services, as close as they can be to the Catholic Mass, still do not have the Holy Sacrifice that the Catholic Mass has. That is a great deal to lack in order to give full satisfaction to God.

RHooker:

Moreover, Anglo-Catholics and high church Lutherans have a very strong devotion to the Eucharist and celebrate the Sacrament at least once a week. Indeed, the Mass celebrated by traditional Anglicans resembles the old Tridentine Mass (except that it is in English) more than it does the Novus Ordo.

That’s great. But that does not change the fact the Jesus is not truly and substantially present in the bread there. I don’t mean to offend anyone here, I’m simply stating truth here. Hurting or offending anyone is not my intention so don’t take my comments as an attack. I am only stating the facts.

If you truly believe what Jesus said in John 6, that the bread is really Him and that He is true food, then you are more than welcome to come to a Catholic Mass and look into becoming a Catholic so as to feast of the True Presence of Jesus Christ and to receive the Sanctifying Grace needed to enter Heaven. After all, Jesus did say that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood they have life in them and that He will raise them up on the last day. So come join us in the Catholic Mass! :yup:

 

[AlegreFe]

Pastor Gary(gcnuss),
Is it true that, in some Luthern churches, after ‘communion’ any leftovers of ‘bread’ and ‘wine’ are discarded?
If Luther taught or re-affirmed the true presence, why do some churches not adhere to that teaching?

Thank you,

Scott

It’s wonderful how many Catholic priests treat the “left over” hosts which are truly Jesus. I know of some priests that treat Jesus with such reverance and respect.

I have heard that some protestant pastors do either throw away the bread after the service or take it home to eat with dinner. But then again it is just bread.

 

[AlegreFe]

HeathK, your analysis is correct. Sadly, as a non-Catholic you understand the nature of the Mass better than alot of Catholics. Many Catholics are under the impression that they are going for entertainment. This is a result of alot of factors, one is a misunderstanding and misapplication of the Vat II document on the liturgy.
In the Mass we are supposed to have vertical worship oriented to God through the sacrificial offering.
(emphasis added)

This is so true!

Franciscan:

Last pount the scriptures from Able on have examples of offering sacrifice as the primary type of worship sanctioned by none other than God Himself. The irony is that ‘Bible only’ churches worship unbiblically.
(emphasis added)

This is true but many protestants take offense to this statement when no offense is intended. It is simply the Truth.

It seems that a protestant definition of worship is somewhat incomplete or not accurate to the what the scriptures consider what worship is. On the other hand, the Catholic Worship is truly a worship in the sense of what the scriptures say. Not only do we offer our own lives to God during the Mass and outside of Mass, but we have the Ultimate Sacrificial Worship in which God is so pleased. How better to please God than with His only Son Jesus Christ. How great is that?! All for the Glory of God!

 

[AlegreFe]

Some mainline denominations like Episcopal or Lutheran may look identical to a Catholic Mass, and you might find yourself going out to check the sign outside to see what church you are in.

There is no way that any denomination service is identical or even “like” the Catholic Mass. The Catholic Mass has the ultimate worship act. The Priest who is standing in the person of Christ, offers up the ultimate sacrifice in which God is mostly pleased; the Passion of His only Son Jesus Christ.

puzzleannie:

I don’t think you can make any general statement that will be true of all protestants in general.

It doesn’t matter how different the services are in protestant denominations. None of them truly, scripturally worship in the way that Catholics do in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

So the idea if any, of generalizing here just does not make a difference. We can be generalizing or not but in the end none of them hold up to the ultimate Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in which God is greatly pleased because of His Son being offered up to Him in Sacrifice. And keep in mind that it is the one and only sacrifice of Jesus that happened at Calvary that we are offering to God. We do not re-sacrifice Jesus; that would be horrendous as in Hebrews.

 

[gcnuss]

Sandy,

I realize that Lutherans believe in the real presence. But the question is how did Luther believe Jesus to be present in the host? Luther believed that Jesus was present along side the host and not fully present with just the appearance of the host or the accidents left.

I wouldn’t characterize Luther’s understanding of the Real Presence as “along side the host.” A phrase he used often was “in, with, and under,” meaning that Christ’s Body and Blood are so bound up in the elements that they are not separate. He did not seek to understand the “how” of the Real Presence, but he certainly believed in it.

Of course, Luther had little use for Greek philosophy so the idea of substance and accidents didn’t figure into his Eucharistic theology.

Peace,
Pastor Gary

 

[AlegreFe]

“in, with, and under,” meaning that Christ’s Body and Blood are so bound up in the elements that they are not separate.

I really don’t want to keep adding to this conversation, but to me, “in, with, and under,” is the same thing as the idea of “Consubstantiation.”

To Catholics, the host is no longer a host at all, but indeed the full Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. There in lies “Transubstantiation” instead. The actual substance changes. We would never say that the substance remains the same as if it didn’t change. We actually believe that Jesus is substantially present instead of the substance of the bread or with the bread. The accidents are the only thing left but the substance actually changes to the real food which is Jesus Christ.

Lutheranism
Lutherans believe that within the Eucharistic celebration the
body and blood of Jesus Christ are objectively present “in,
with, and under the forms” of bread and wine (cf. Book of
Concord). They place great stress on Jesus’ instructions
to “take and eat”, and “take and drink”, holding that this is the
proper, divinely ordained use of the sacrament, and, while
giving it due reverence, scrupulously avoid any actions that
might indicate or lead to superstition or unworthy fear of the
sacrament. However, Luther explicitly rejected
transubstantiation, believing that the bread and wine remained
fully bread and fully wine while also being fully the body and
blood of Jesus Christ. Luther instead emphasized the
consubstantiation.

 

[JWilson]

I went to a christmas mass last year and maybe 10-20 people in the service of about 500 or more sang the old familiar songs.It was like a funeral service, sad to say.The Bible is filled with rejoicing,dancing,clapping and being filled with joy for what God has done.Should we not clap,dance and sing for joy in church?I’ve been to many catholic churches and find the same thing in all of them.There are also protestant churches with no life in them might I add.What do you think we’ll be doing in heaven?I imagine it will be a party!I just refuse to go to a place of worship where you have to put on your serious face.Give God all the praise he deserves!Should church not be an exciting place to go as aposed to boring?Long gone are the singing hymns days.The future generations want something new and exciting.Just ask young people.Whether catholic or protestant who wants to go somewhere that makes you want to go to sleep?

 

[AlegreFe]

I went to a christmas mass last year and maybe 10-20 people in the service of about 500 or more sang the old familiar songs. It was like a funeral service, sad to say. The Bible is filled with rejoicing, dancing, clapping and being filled with joy for what God has done. Should we not clap, dance and sing for joy in church? I’ve been to many catholic churches and find the same thing in all of them. There are also protestant churches with no life in them might I add. What do you think we’ll be doing in heaven? I imagine it will be a party! I just refuse to go to a place of worship where you have to put on your serious face. Give God all the praise he deserves! Should church not be an exciting place to go as aposed to boring? Long gone are the singing hymns days.The future generations want something new and exciting. Just ask young people. Whether catholic or protestant who wants to go somewhere that makes you want to go to sleep?

Since you are not Catholic and you don’t seem interested because you think you’ll be bored, you do not understand what the Catholic Mass means.

I believe there is a time and a place for everything, including singing, dancing and clapping. The Catholic Mass is not the place for clapping and dancing. We have certain groups to get together for that. But the Mass? Very reverant. We are to show respect to God because His Son Jesus Christ is truly present in the Catholic Church.

I don’t mean that we can’t sing. The Mass where you attended might have been unusual (to me anyway) where many didn’t sing. But that doesn’t mean we could be dancing and clapping in the pews. We bow our head in prayer when the Priest standing in the person of Christ, consecrates the host to turn it into the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

One of the Parishes where I go to Mass has a beautiful choir and they sing happy songs. Their voices are beautiful and I love to listen to them. But that doesn’t make the Mass any Holier. The singing doesn’t make the Mass any more satisfying to God the Father. What is most satisfying to God is the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. We Catholics have that in our Masses.

If you only understood the importance of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass you would not degrade it by saying that we need to dance and/or clap in the pews. That is not what makes the Mass.

I pray that God gives you the gift of Faith so that you can see how important the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass really is. Nothing like a song or dance will fill you up the way Jesus would fill you up in Holy Communion, which we have at every single Mass. I thank God that I could have Jesus Christ in such a very special way.

 

[AlegreFe]

Should church not be an exciting place to go as aposed to boring? Long gone are the singing hymns days. The future generations want something new and exciting. Just ask young people. Whether catholic or protestant who wants to go somewhere that makes you want to go to sleep?

Oh I would like to add that God does not change. So you cannot say “Long gone are the singing hymns days” or anything else of the sort. I’m not saying that the singing of the hymns are what we have to do in Mass. I’m just saying that just because time passes does not mean the Catholic Church has to “go with the flow” in order to please people.

I never want to go to sleep during Mass. I pray to God, I listen to the readings, I give my life over to Him. I pray the Lord’s Prayer, I pray that I am not worthy to receive Him but He only needs to say the word and my soul is healed.

The Mass is the Mass and it will not change as far as it having the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Holy Eucharist is the source, center and summit of our Christian lives. So Jesus will never go away as He said that He will be with us until the end of time.

 

[gcnuss]

Sandy,

To Catholics, the host is no longer a host at all, but indeed the full Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. There in lies “Transubstantiation” instead. The actual substance changes. We would never say that the substance remains the same as if it didn’t change. We actually believe that Jesus is substantially present instead of the substance of the bread or with the bread. The accidents are the only thing left but the substance actually changes to the real food which is Jesus Christ.

I think that we may never come to agreement here. We Lutherans don’t reach out to Greek metaphysics to explain Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. However, using the metaphysical terms, what we humans perceive in a physical sense are the “accidents.” I would challenge you to differentiate between a consecrated host and an unconsecrated host if you had nothing to tell you which is which. Yet, you and I both believe that with the consecrated host we receive the true Christ. How that happens remains a mystery – of course, I suppose one could claim that Greek metaphysics is a mystery.

Peace,
Pastor Gary