The Mass is the Mass, but I Struggle with the Low Mass

[CB_Catholic]

I actually love the EF and that would always be my first option.

If I didn’t have any missa cantata or high masses available to me and there was a reverent OF nearby, I would attend.

I’m saying if there was nothing at all, but a low mass in the way I described, I couldn’t do it.

But I sort of believe I am in error somehow by not being able to assist at a low mass. Why do some people say they prefer the low mass? Should I be more prayerful?

Why are you fighting with yourself? You are not in error. Sometimes we like things, sometimes we don’t. If you prefer the OF over the low EF Mass, that is not a sin, and there is nothing wrong with going where your spiritual needs are met.

What others think or say is not important. They can’t make you feel any different than you do. You have to be your own person here. And remember, God has been gracious in giving us a Church that has a wide range of spiritualities to meet our individual needs. He knows we are not all alike. So don’t be ashamed of how you feel. Accept your feelings and go where you need to be, and thank God you have a choice.

 

[TrueLight]

Why are you fighting with yourself? You are not in error. Sometimes we like things, sometimes we don’t. If you prefer the OF over the low EF Mass,
that is not a sin, and there is nothing wrong with going where your spiritual needs are met.

I know it’s not a sin. I’m not scrupulous.

What others think or say is not important. They can’t make you feel any different than you do. You have to be your own person here.

I know you mean well, but trust me. I am always my own person.

However, although I would never attend a low mass on a regular basis, I do feel that I when I am at a low mass, I should be able to join my prayers with the priest. I do have to look internally as to why I need music, chant, etc. And I think folks have given great advice on how to acquire a proper attitude of prayer.

And remember, God has been gracious in giving us a Church that has a wide range of spiritualities to meet our individual needs. He knows we are not all alike. So don’t be ashamed of how you feel. Accept your feelings and go where you need to be, and thank God you have a choice.

Thank God for that!

 

[Will_S]

The Low Mass is historically a rather recent invention. That is, it developed in the last 500 years or so.

What a Low Mass makes me think of, is the Catholic priests in Elizabethan England who risked death by saying Mass, hidden away in secret chapels behind fake bookcases and the like. Of course they had to say Mass almost silently to escape detection. They even had super lightweight striped silk chasubles where each of the stripes was a different liturgical color so that with one chasuble they were always wearing the correct liturgical color.

 

[archangel04]

True light I always enjoy your post you sound like a humble woman. I can agree that the low mass would be difficult for many especially in this loud culture that we live in. Best thing you can do is pray, or find daily OF.

 

[TrueLight]

The Low Mass is historically a rather recent invention. That is, it developed in the last 500 years or so.

What a Low Mass makes me think of, is the Catholic priests in Elizabethan England who risked death by saying Mass, hidden away in secret chapels behind fake bookcases and the like. Of course they had to say Mass almost silently to escape detection. They even had super lightweight striped silk chasubles where each of the stripes was a different liturgical color so that with one chasuble they were always wearing the correct liturgical color.

That’s very interesting. The furtive mass.

True light I always enjoy your post you sound like a humble woman. I can agree that the low mass would be difficult for many especially in this loud culture that we live in. Best thing you can do is pray, or find daily OF.

I’m definitely working on the humble part. ha ha.

I just feel that if I show up for a mass that I expect to be a missa cantata and for some reason it’s a low mass, I shouldn’t feel like leaving. You know what I mean?

 

[Sarahforgiven]

Wow, what a blessing to have these different forms available in your area. I would love to be able to experience these forms:thumbsup:

 

[laszlo]

The Low Mass is historically a rather recent invention. That is, it developed in the last 500 years or so.

That is not true. The Low Mass developed, when during and after the Great Epidemics (12-13C) when a third of Europe extinguished, The traditional villages, where people owned the land emptied, and the new owners denied the tithe (decima = one tenth of the harvest) to the Church. New income was necessary, and the propitiatory effect of the Mass came into the center; priests lived from the offering for personal intentions. Every priest started to say Mass every day, some even multiple times. Side altars were built in the Churches and Masses were celebrated there. The regular Mass stopped to be community event, it became a matter between the priest and Jesus Christ for propitiation of the dead and sometimes living people. There were many abuses, the church prohibited the multiple masses, required at least the presence of altar servers, and enforced the sober Roman rite all over the Western world. However until Vatican II the low mass was the norm. The Gregorian Chant was revived and popularized only at the end of the 19th century by the Solesmes monks, but it became dominant only recently in some churches.

Now, God always stood by the decisions of His Church, so the low Mass has its positive side. One can meditate it over. Here are some decades from the Risary for meditation:

• prayers at the foot of the Altar: Christs agony in the Gethsemane garden, let me prostate with Him, for my sins
• Gloria: the birth of out Lord, let us have joy with the Angels
• Offertory: the presentation of Jesus in the Church, let us offer with Mary, what we have
• Consecration: the crucifixion of Jesus, let me unit with Him, and die for the sin
• Communion: real of spiritual communion with the Anima Christi

Quite meaningful set could be done through the Luminous secrets too, the Mass is Jesus public life among us

 

[Will_S]

That is not true. The Low Mass developed, when during and after the Great Epidemics (12-13C) when a third of Europe extinguished

I did not mean to imply that the Low Mass developed because of the persecution in England. I just meant that the Low Mass reminds me of the persecution in England.

 

[malphono]

I just feel that if I show up for a mass that I expect to be a missa cantata and for some reason it’s a low mass, I shouldn’t feel like leaving. You know what I mean?

It seems to me that’s nothing more than the normal and natural feeling of disappointment that often sets in when one expects something that one likes very much but gets something that one likes less.

For example, one church that I frequent has an alternating schedule, so on July 3rd, I went to what I thought was going to be a Missa Cantata, but turned out to be a Missa Lecta (probably because it was a holiday weekend). Yes, I felt a bit of disappointment, but OTOH, the thought of leaving never crossed my mind. I was still very thankful that Mass was in the Usus Antiquior.

 

[CB_Catholic]

That’s very interesting. The furtive mass.

I’m definitely working on the humble part. ha ha.

I just feel that if I show up for a mass that I expect to be a missa cantata and for some reason it’s a low mass, I shouldn’t feel like leaving. You know what I mean?

Believe me, that is not an unusual feeling sometimes. Whether it is an EF low Mass or an OF that is not done quite right. I’ve been to Masses where I wanted to leave:blush:

 

[Chatter163]

Please pray for me.

I know the Mass is the Mass, and it shouldn’t matter what form it is in, but I really can’t get into the low Mass.

This week I attended two Masses that are usually missa cantata masses, but for some reason ended up being low Masses. No chants, no music.

At the first Mass, I did okay. I followed along in the missal and tried my best to pray. I really struggled with the second mass. I struggled to hear and at some point I found my mind wandering. Plus there was no homily.

To be perfectly honest, if I know a Mass is going to be a low Mass, I probably will go elsewhere. That is probably not the correct thing to do, but I’m being honest.

And yes I know it’s all about the Eucharist, which in my case, is not even that applicable, as I am not even receiving the Eucharist.

I am reminded of The Old Medic’s comments about how the Mass used to be and how you couldn’t even hear the priest.

If the low Mass (with no chanting/singing) is the only option I had, I doubt I would go to Mass.

Any suggestions?

I fully prefer High Mass, but in time the Low Mass will ckick, as well. It takes longer, Be patient and you will be rewarded. Don’t worry about being at the exact same point as the priest for now. Just learn the Mass as best you can, including the priest’s getsures and movements. Patience.

 

[laszlo]

I did not mean to imply that the Low Mass developed because of the persecution in England. I just meant that the Low Mass reminds me of the persecution in England.

I responded (and quoted clearly so) to the 500 years. Times are going fast. The great epidemics happened over 700 years ago. 500 years ago was the time of the Reformation a significantly different mentality and environment.

The Great epidemic emphasized our insufficiency and thus the need for propitiation, the Reformation meant the power of the humanity

 

[MissRose73]

I’ve not yet had the chance to go to a Missa Cantata and also a High Mass. I’ve only been to 2 Low EF Masses. Someday, I will attend those others too as I heard they are longer and have more going on at them.

 

[felsguy]

Originally Posted by MarkThompson
Well, yes and no. As then-Fr. Ratzinger remarked:
[From the late Middle Ages] the fate of liturgy in the West was now in the hands of a strictly centralized and purely bureaucratic authority. This authority completely lacked historical perspective; it viewed the liturgy solely in terms of ceremonial rubrics, treating it as a kind of problem of proper court etiquette for sacred matters. This resulted in the complete archaizing of the liturgy, which now passed from the stage of living history, became embalmed in the status quo and was ultimately doomed to internal decay. The liturgy had become a rigid, fixed and firmly encrusted system; the more out of touch with genuine piety the more attention was paid to its prescribed forms. We can see this if we remember that none of the saints of the Catholic Reformation drew their spirituality from the liturgy. Ignatius of Loyola, Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross developed their religious life solely from personal encounter with God and from individual experience of the Church, quite apart from the liturgy and any deep involvement with it.

Mark. Could you cite where this quote came from? I would like to read it to understand it fully within the context.

Also I feel as though we should take this in the context of his other writings, such as the many times quoted Summorum Pontificum:

Mark can speak for himself and always does very well. However in the meantime here is a link to the document from which, I believe, Mark quotes

traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_068_RatzMass.htm

 

[MarkThompson]

Mark can speak for himself and always does very well. However in the meantime here is a link to the document from which, I believe, Mark quotes

traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_068_RatzMass.htm

Oh, sorry, I hadn’t seen the request for a source. (I certainly didn’t paste anything from Tradition In Action, though! Nor does that version bother to include the portion about Ignatius and Theresa.) The quotation is from Joseph Ratzinger, Theological Highlights of Vatican II (1966), pp. 130-31. You can see the Google preview here.

 

[laszlo]

However, although I would never attend a low mass on a regular basis, I do feel that I when I am at a low mass, I should be able to join my prayers with the priest. I do have to look internally as to why I need music, chant, etc. And I think folks have given great advice on how to acquire a proper attitude of prayer.

What you apparently fail to understand that the whole structure of the Tridentine Mass is centered around the propitiatory Sacrifice of our Lord. In this structure our actions do not count, only His grace.

The theology behind that is a solid theological opinion. Not dogma, but solid and well founded.

The other side, the importance of our action, cooperation, attention, participation is also solid theological opinion. This opinion is blooming in the (reverent) new form of the Mass, and exists even in the no so reverent ones. We are imperfect limited sinful human beings.

This things are mystery, and we are able to grab only morsels, sometime om either - or fashion.

One more note: some folks here proudly pronounce that the Low Mass is relatively new. It is about 750 years old. But the Missa Cantata what is now the norm for the TLM is less than 120 years old. The original High Mass need full set of clergy (bishop/priest, deacon, subdeacon, acolytes, and so on) simply not available outside of the cathedrals. Related to the High Mass the Missa Cantata is a 120 years old invention.

The unfortunate thing is that some traditionalist cannot distinguish between the forties and fifties and the 2000 years of the Church, and identify the pre Vatican II decades with the whole history.

 

[TrueLight]

What you apparently fail to understand that the whole structure of the Tridentine Mass is centered around the propitiatory Sacrifice of our Lord. In this structure our actions do not count, only His grace.

Is this why people would say their Rosaries during mass?
Are you saying we go to mass to “hear” mass?

The theology behind that is a solid theological opinion. Not dogma, but solid and well founded.

Can you share 1 or 2 references as to why our actions don’t count?

I attended another low mass yesterday. It was better because the chapel was small and I could hear both server and priest. I was baffled as to why only the server responded. If the priest faces us and says “Dominus Vobiscum”, then why can’t we respond “Et cum Spiritu tuo?”

. But the Missa Cantata what is now the norm for the TLM is less than 120 years old. The original High Mass need full set of clergy (bishop/priest, deacon, subdeacon, acolytes, and so on) simply not available outside of the cathedrals. Related to the High Mass the Missa Cantata is a 120 years old invention.

I always say thank God for that. I see this as organic change. And I say it’s for the better.

 

[ProVobis]

I attended another low mass yesterday. It was better because the chapel was small and I could hear both server and priest. I was baffled as to why only the server responded. If the priest faces us and says “Dominus Vobiscum”, then why can’t we respond “Et cum Spiritu tuo?”

If I remember right, the priest is not supposed to look at the congregation when he says “Dominus vobiscum.” Perhaps that’s why the congregation doesn’t respond?

 

[valient_Lucy]

The Mass was considered exclusively the Holy Sacrifice of our Lord, where the presence of the people is accidental only.

That to me makes a lot of sense, and I think this is pretty obvious from the few times I’ve attended the EF.

In the EF, the participation of the laity is a pretty nebulous concept. Right now, that means the laity following the readings in a missal, but that’s a new phenomenon. St. Joan of Arc never followed along in a missal in her life; she couldn’t read. In fact, from what I understand, Missals weren’t even available to the laity until the second half of the 19th century.

In Hungar of Memory, a memoir by Richard Rodriguez, he describes attending the EF as a child in the 1950’s. He stresses that the laity were involved in private prayer during the Mass; he remembers the jingling of his mother’s rosary and her whispered Spanish Hail Mary’s during Mass. In fact, he loved that the Mass was both a public and private event; the public event of the Mass would go on adjacent to the private prayers of his mother. I realize that many people think that it’s inappropriate for the laity to pray the rosary during Mass, but his mother was probably doing what women in her family had done for generations. It’s very unlikely that her grandmother could read, and her grandmother probably didn’t have access to a Missal in Spanish. Who am I to judge her for her actions?

I think we need to come to an understanding of what is participation. I was thinking about this last Monday, when I went to a baseball game. I actually got to be out on the field to hold the flag during the National Anthem. After the National Anthem was over, we went back and had to disassemble the flag and put it away. Then we walked to our seats in the bleachers. By the time we got to our seats, it was the top of the third inning. (No scoring.) We were, however, listening to the game on the radio that was broadcasting the game at the stadium. As soon as we took our seats, I noticed that my friend looked seriously dehydrated. So, we immediately left and went to find water and some food, since we were all hungry. We ate our way overpriced food ($14 for a hamburger, fries and a drink!) and talked, keeping our eyes on the TV showing the game. Finally, after finishing our food, we went back and took our seats in time for the top of the seventh inning. Now, we were only sitting and watching the game for 3 innings, but does that mean that we were not participating in the experience of a Major League baseball game?

 

[TrueLight]

If I remember right, the priest is not supposed to look at the congregation when he says “Dominus vobiscum.” Perhaps that’s why the congregation doesn’t respond?

I have seen the Priest look at the congregation in every EF I’ve attended. I won’t say he has looked each time, but defintely at least once or twice during the mass.