The Mass of Vatican II

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Trident59 said:
I tend to agree with Steve Green in the overall picture.

It is not disrespectful to critisize a Pope when he is not speaking excathedra. Popes are very human and subject to making mistakes as are we all.

It would be disrespectful to speak slander of anyone.
But truth is not to be avoided.
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Thats very true. I mean, it is one thing to respect and honor our Holy Father and understand his words- it is totally another to hold as a perfect human being who’s every word is infallible.

Here is something to think about:

A Catholic philosopher once said, “if the Holy Father declares that 2 and 2 make 5, I will believe him”.

Another Catholic philosopher replied, “if His Holiness said that 2 and 2 make 5, I would say in public, “we must have misunderstood the words of our Most Holy Father”; and in private I would pray for his sanity”.

The Pope is not outside the Church: like all of us he is accountable to the infallible teachings of the Church. He is also accountable to logic and reason. With some of you who hold the Pope to such a high standard, I sudder to think of what might happen if we get another Alexander VI.
 
Dear Caesar,
It is one thing to publicly disagree and say maybe the Pope made a mistake in his math. It is quite another matter to call his work an “invention” of another, or a forced outcome of a “conspiracy theory,” both of which you have done. I don’t buy into the soft soap.
 
Joysong said:
Dear Caesar,
It is one thing to publicly disagree and say maybe the Pope made a mistake in his math. It is quite another matter to call his work an “invention” of another, or a forced outcome of a “conspiracy theory,” both of which you have done. I don’t buy into the soft soap.
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If you are reffering to post 8, you have misunderstood me. Nowhere did I suggest that Paul VI was forced by some sort of conspiracy theory to accept the Novus Ordo. I was commenting on the fact that such theories exist.

Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that the Novus Ordo is a work of Paul VI. It is not. It was created by Archbishop Bugnini, much to the displeasure of officials like Cardinal Ottaviani (who lead the Holy Office at that time). The point of this thread is to discuss the changes that Burgnini’s Mass made and the reforms actualy mandated by Vatican II.
 
Even though EWTN edited the answer after it was first published in thier Q&A section, Fr. Levine of Web of Faith had stated that the Novus Ordo WAS a totally fabricated mass. Quite an admission.
 
Caesar said:
Thats very true. I mean, it is one thing to respect and honor our Holy Father and understand his words- it is totally another to hold as a perfect human being who’s every word is infallible.

Here is something to think about:

A Catholic philosopher once said, “if the Holy Father declares that 2 and 2 make 5, I will believe him”.

Another Catholic philosopher replied, “if His Holiness said that 2 and 2 make 5, I would say in public, “we must have misunderstood the words of our Most Holy Father”; and in private I would pray for his sanity”.

The Pope is not outside the Church: like all of us he is accountable to the infallible teachings of the Church. He is also accountable to logic and reason. With some of you who hold the Pope to such a high standard, I sudder to think of what might happen if we get another Alexander VI.
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Given the extremes of distaste some people express for our newest legitimately and duly formulated and promulgated form of Mass, I’m surprised some don’t prefer an Alexander VI to Paul VI.

After all, dreadful though he was as a person and as much disrepute as he dragged the Church into, at least he didn’t mess with tradition - small t or large T - or, heaven forbid, the Mass :rolleyes:
 
LilyM said:
Given the extremes of distaste some people express for our newest legitimately and duly formulated and promulgated form of Mass, I’m surprised some don’t prefer an Alexander VI to Paul VI.

After all, dreadful though he was as a person and as much disrepute as he dragged the Church into, at least he didn’t mess with tradition - small t or large T - or, heaven forbid, the Mass :rolleyes:
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The newest legitimately and duly formulated and promulgated form of Mass? I’m not sure I understand you here.

In the past, the Mass organically developed over the centuries. It was never created from scratch before.

The Pauline Mass however was created: in the late 1960s by Archbishop Bugnini and various clergymen. Had the mandates of Vatican II been met, we would still have an organic development.
 
Does anyone know of any orders or congregations of priests that celebrate the Pauline this way?

I know of the Oratorians and the Society of St. John Cantius (as well as celebrating the Tridentine).
 
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