The Mass Revision

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I note on the CCCB website that Bishops are being invited “as of September 25, to authorize experimentation in their dioceses with the liturgical modifications required by the General Instruction and also with the sung responses for the new English-language translation of the liturgical texts in the Missal.”

That’s a little over 3 weeks away and we’ve yet to see the GIRM. Priests in our diocese are getting a workshop on the second week of September.
 
I am still awaiting my Mass setting from GIA. We will not start until it is shipped and we have time to prepare.
 
Thank you for the answers, everyone. Now I know when the Mass will change.🙂
 
I note on the CCCB website that Bishops are being invited “as of September 25, to authorize experimentation in their dioceses with the liturgical modifications required by the General Instruction and also with the sung responses for the new English-language translation of the liturgical texts in the Missal.”

That’s a little over 3 weeks away and we’ve yet to see the GIRM. Priests in our diocese are getting a workshop on the second week of September.
The GIRM has been available from the USCCB for a couple of months.
 
The GIRM has been available from the USCCB for a couple of months.
But that’s not the version for Canada. It’s most likely that our adaptations on posture will not be the same as the USCCB’s nor will our adaptations on Entrance/Offertory/Communion chants.
 
I will be there just after X-mas time.

Will those in England respond differently compared to Americans at Mass, or will it be uniform in terms of responses like the “And with your spirit”, etc
We do say “and with your spirit” now. That is in UK. I’m not sure if that means we are using the revised Mass, I guess I will find out more once I start RCIA.
 
I note on the CCCB website that Bishops are being invited “as of September 25, to authorize experimentation in their dioceses with the liturgical modifications required by the General Instruction and also with the sung responses for the new English-language translation of the liturgical texts in the Missal.”
Experimentation?? Isn’t that what happened before the Missal of Pope Paul VI was implemented with disastrous efforts in many dioceses when they couldn’t stop experimenting?
 
Has the Mass changed already? I heard about this a few months ago and thought it was going to take a long time but people sound like it already did.

If it did change, what is different?

Thank you
Technically, nothing is changing. The erroneous changes made to the Liturgical prayers circa 1973 when the Mass of Pope Paul VI was translated into English are being corrected, rubrics were updated and revised, prayers for celebration of recently canonized saints added, etc.

This correction has been a long time in the making, so to speak, since things got started in earnest in 2000 when Pope John Paul II introduced the third typical edition of the Roman Missal. After that, in 2001 and 2007, general and specific rules for translation of the third typical edition into vernacular languages were released. In light of these rules, the additions to the rubrics and additions to the canon of the saints, a revised translation was begun in English. It’s been in use in some places in Australia and South Africa in English for about six to eight months now, I think.

It’s so exciting that we are finally getting back the Gloria, Credo and Sanctus in English!

– Nicole
 
Experimentation?? Isn’t that what happened before the Missal of Pope Paul VI was implemented with disastrous efforts in many dioceses when they couldn’t stop experimenting?
I think what they meant to say was “try out the new postures and practice standing before saying ‘May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…’ instead of after” and “start using the sung responses.”😉
 
Technically, nothing is changing. The erroneous changes made to the Liturgical prayers circa 1973 when the Mass of Pope Paul VI was translated into English are being corrected, rubrics were updated and revised, prayers for celebration of recently canonized saints added, etc.
There were no error in the previous translation. It was less literal. No where was there a contradiction, only a more dynamic translation.
 
There were no error in the previous translation. It was less literal. No where was there a contradiction, only a more dynamic translation.
The concepts of “one in being” versus “consubstantial” are not dynamic equivalents.

“Lord, God of power and might” is not a dynamic equivalent of “Lord, God of hosts.”

“…” is not the dynamic equivalent of “We praise you. We bless you. We worship you. We glorify you.”

– Nicole
 
The concepts of “one in being” versus “consubstantial” are not dynamic equivalents.

“Lord, God of power and might” is not a dynamic equivalent of “Lord, God of hosts.”

“…” is not the dynamic equivalent of “We praise you. We bless you. We worship you. We glorify you.”

– Nicole
Indeed, you are both wrong. The 1973 translation is packed with places (e.g., “And also with you”) where what you see is a deliberate choice to rewrite the original, not “errors,” as though the translators simply goofed and the editor failed to catch the blunder. On the other hand, we were given in many places rewritings of the original, not “translations” of any sort, be it dynamic or literal.
 
The concepts of “one in being” versus “consubstantial” are not dynamic equivalents.

“Lord, God of power and might” is not a dynamic equivalent of “Lord, God of hosts.”

“…” is not the dynamic equivalent of “We praise you. We bless you. We worship you. We glorify you.”

– Nicole
Yes, it is. That is the difference between equivalent and equal. You may not agree, but one can’t deny that at least somewhere, some educated translators thought it an acceptable equivalency. No, I will not buy into Mark’s conspiratorial assigning of motive, either, though considering how he worded his first sentence, I believe my signature to be applicable.
 
Yes, it is. That is the difference between equivalent and equal. You may not agree, but one can’t deny that at least somewhere, some educated translators thought it an acceptable equivalency. No, I will not buy into Mark’s conspiratorial assigning of motive, either, though considering how he worded his first sentence, I believe my signature to be applicable.
No, in many places – and I impute no motive, and frankly suspect that they had good (if misguided) motives – they simply opted to rewrite. Let’s look at the Prayer Over the Gifts for the Eighth Sunday of Ordinary Time:
Latin
Deus, qui offerenda tuo nomini tribuis, et oblata devotioni nostrae servitutis ascribis, quaesumus clementiam tuam, ut, quod praestas unde sit meritum, proficere nobis largiaris ad praemium.

New Translation
O God, who provide gifts to be offered to your name and count our oblations as a token of devoted service, we ask of your mercy, that what you grant as the source of merit you may also bestow upon us as a prize.

1973 Translation
God our Creator, may this bread and wine we offer as a sign of our love and worship lead us to salvation.
You see, of course, that the general theme of the prayer is roughly the same, but that whole chunks of meaning, including the whole last half of the prayer, were simply removed – not “translated” in any way, shape, or form. Some bits were added too, like God “our Creator.” I’m well aware of what dynamic translation is, and I favor it in certain cases and to a limited measure over too-mindless literalism. The above is not an authentic example of dynamic translation.
 
You see, of course, that the general theme of the prayer is roughly the same, but that whole chunks of meaning, including the whole last half of the prayer, were simply removed
Absolutely, in your example, it is not a translation. But I wonder, since the 1973 is not even the same, if there is something more to this once a year part, like maybe a misprint. It is an obscure example.
 
A misprint, eh? I would suggest that perhaps you don’t know as much about the 1973 translation as you think you do. Let’s look at the corresponding prayers from the previous Sunday, and from the following Sunday. See what you think about the concepts that have been added and the concepts that have been subtracted. One could keep going, of course.

Prayer over the Gifts, 7th Sunday of Ordinary Time:
Latin
Mysteria tua, Domine, debitis servitiis exsequentes, supplices te rogamus, ut, quod ad honorem tuae maiestatis offerimus, nobis proficiat ad salutem.

New Translation
As we celebrate your mysteries, O Lord, with the observance that is your due, we humbly ask you, that what we offer to the honor of your majesty may profit us for salvation.

1973 Translation
Lord, as we make this offering, may our worship in Spirit and truth bring us salvation.

Prayer over the Gifts, 9th Sunday of Ordinary Time:
Latin
In tua pietate confidentes, Domine, cum muneribus ad altaria veneranda concurrimus, ut, tua purificante nos gratia, iisdem quibus famulamur mysteriis emundemur.

New Translation
Trusting in your compassion, O Lord, we come eagerly with our offerings to your sacred altar, that, through the purifying action of your grace, we may be cleansed by the very mysteries we serve.

1973 Translation
Lord, as we gather to offer our gifts confident in your love, make us holy by sharing your life with us and by this Eucharist forgive our sins.
 
A misprint, eh? I would suggest that perhaps you don’t know as much about the 1973 translation as you think you do.
Reading my mind now, are you? I never claimed to a single thing about the 1973 translation of the Prayer over the Gifts,so how do you know what I think about the 1973 translation? Your jabbing remark was mistaken. This type of logical error is why I do use posters here to have a better grasp on the liturgy than our bishops.
 
Absolutely, in your example, it is not a translation.
But we have multiple English translations of the Bible. Some are more faithful to the Vulgate than others, some are paraphrases of other translations, but we still call them translations.

That said, I don’t recall at the time it was called a “dynamic” translation. I think copyrights were the main issue then. The ICEL changes were actually applied in the old Mass before the new one was promulgated as early as 1965, the canon in 1967. The debate at that time involved whether the all-vernacular invalidated the Mass more than whether the translations were true to the Latin or not. Any translation is going to be a deviation from the original. Even literal translations, like the Douay Rheims, will have guesses, albeit educated ones, on what the Latin meanings are.

Even in the new translation, we still keep the artificial subjunctive “BE” in the “Lord BE with you,” the “lift” as in “lift up your hearts” where in the other languages, like Polish, they are more in line with the Latin.

Incidentally, the “and also with you” was designed to be a response to “May the spirit of the Lord be with you” but somehow they reverted to the “The Lord be with you.” I’m not even going to guess why that happened but the “and also with you” really caught on.
 
But we have multiple English translations of the Bible. Some are more faithful to the Vulgate than others, some are paraphrases of other translations, but we still call them translations.
The thing is, I actually prefer the more literal translations, though I recognize their shortcomings. For example, “consubstantial” is meaningless, unless one already knows what that word means. I do not think I have ever read it in a novel or seen it in print. Therefore, the less literal is more effective to convey a meaning without having to explain it. After all, if we wanted hyper-literal, we could just transliterate the Latin, or even forgo the English in favor of the Latin. Either would leave us with less understanding for the majority of Catholics.

You are right about the short-comings of translation. Though I do not know anything of the 1973 translations of Prayer over the Gifts, I do know a something of translating itself, as I have done quite a bit. (Greek).
 
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