The Mass v. Protestant Services

[ricmat]

mepatri - you’ve raised a bunch (maybe a couple bunches) of different issues. You might want to pick just one thing (on a separate thread), have a good discussion about that, and then move on to your next item.

 

[Eileen_T]

God told His people how He wanted them to worship Him.
The OT worship was a pre-figuring of the Mass.

Our Liturgy of the Word shows the link between Christian and Jewish prayer.

The Jewish Temple had a sacrificial Liturgy. One of these sacrifices was the Zebah Todah in which a meal was shared with God. Our Mass is both a sacrifice and a meal, like the Jewish Todah.

One poster remarked on seeing a tabernacle and red light in a Jewish synagogue. We also continue with the use of candles, incense and bells, and an altar of sacrifice.

And, of course, a priesthood wearing special vestments.

In the Old Testament, God not only regulated the details of divine worship, but He also prescribed the type of dress to be worn by the priests in the performance of their priestly office. “You must make sacred vestments for your brother Aaron to consecrate him to serve as priest to me.” (Exodus 28).

 

[ricmat]

Regarding the pope kissing the ground…

IThe point here is the claiming of the land, not how he goes about it. I suppose the pope thinks this is the best way to symbolize what he’s doing. It’s probably better than pulling out a sword, running through the president of the country he’s visiting, and wiping the blood off on his robe - don’t you think?

That fact that you interpret kissing the ground (and saying he does it only because it’s less obvious than running the president through with a sword) shows just how far from the real world you are. It seems that you are so full of hate and rage towards Catholics that you will believe almost anything.

Rather than believe what your church has told you Catholics believe, you should ask us, and then believe it when we say what we believe.

And you never answered the 2 simple questions I asked previously (or if you did, I apoligize for not seeing it):

Do you believe that Jesus is divine?

Do you believe in the Trinitarian God of Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit?

 

[Eileen_T]

From my observations, it would seem that non-Catholic Christian services are similar to Jewish synagogue liturgical worship. And yet, God was very definite in His instructions regarding worship in the OT.

The NT was written in a time of persecution. Apart from the Gospels themselves, the NT was written instruction to various peoples. There would have been no need to instruct them in what they already knew to do. Only when they started doing something wrong.

That’s why it is important to read the early Church Fathers to fill in some of the gaps.

 

[mepatri]

One thing Catholics do that non-Catholic Christian churches don’t is found in the book of Malachi. Ch 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

A clean oblation describes the body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice.

It’s interesting you bring this scripture up. The apostle Paul it seems would disagree with your assessment.

Paul said:

“I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

The Eucharist can only be offered in select places: Churches consecrated and blessed according to Catholic Canon Law. The idea of offering our bodies as living sacrifices fits better with the language of the prediction of Malichi, which says that the sacrifices will be offered "in every place." To my knowledge, the Catholic Eucharist has never, and is not now, been offered “in every place.”

Regarding the Euchrist - Jesus said - “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63-64).

If “the flesh is of no avail,” why would we have to eat Jesus’ flesh in order to have eternal life? Jesus then states that the words He speaks are “spirit.” Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one. The language fits perfectly with the prior statement of the apostle Paul: “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

One other point - you state:

One thing Catholics do that non-Catholic Christian churches don’t is found in the book of Malachi…

The Catholic Church is big on “we have what you don’t have” types of arguments. You should watch out for this. Sometimes it is what you *don’t *have that is more important. The Catholics continue to offer sacrafice at the Euchrist, but Jesus offered the final sacrifice…

Hebrews 7:23 / 24

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office. but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

Human men are limited, and not adequate to be priests…

Hebrews 7:26 /27

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Jesus offered the final sacrifice. There is no need for further sacrifice, and in fact, by doing so, Catholics minimize the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

 

[6YRSHOME]

It’s interesting you bring this scripture up. The apostle Paul it seems would disagree with your assessment.

Paul said:

The Eucharist can only be offered in select places: Churches consecrated and blessed according to Catholic Canon Law. The idea of offering our bodies as living sacrifices fits better with the language of the prediction of Malichi, which says that the sacrifices will be offered "in every place." To my knowledge, the Catholic Eucharist has never, and is not now, been offered “in every place.”

If “the flesh is of no avail,” why would we have to eat Jesus’ flesh in order to have eternal life? Jesus then states that the words He speaks are “spirit.” Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one. The language fits perfectly with the prior statement of the apostle Paul: “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

One other point - you state:

The Catholic Church is big on “we have what you don’t have” types of arguments. You should watch out for this. Sometimes it is what you *don’t *have that is more important. The Catholics continue to offer sacrafice at the Euchrist, but Jesus offered the final sacrifice…

Human men are limited, and not adequate to be priests…

Jesus offered the final sacrifice. There is no need for further sacrifice, and in fact, by doing so, Catholics minimize the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

All of these things have been addressed in this and other posts. Your claims are unfounded and your Scriptures are taken out of context. I could again dispute everything you have just said but blasting each other with quotes and proofs will accomplish nothing. You are convinced in you heart that the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong. But you are not going to convince me or, I doubt, any other Catholic here. So how about we set aside our differences on this issue.

 

[jmcrae]

To my knowledge, the Catholic Eucharist has never, and is not now, been offered “in every place.”

Then your knowledge is faulty. The Catholic Mass is, indeed, available in every place that there are human beings.

 

[contramundum7]

Earlier today I posted the following on the Non-Catholic Religions page, under an old thread. It wasn’t getting much response, so allow me to post it here and ask a question that I believe might complement the question asked by the OP. If it seems I’m trying to hijack the thread, I’m not, it just seems this might be a good thread to ask the following:

When we attend church, what precisely defines “worship”? Protestants sing songs and pray in a manner/mood designed to, as some cutely describe it, “demonstrate God’s worth-ship.” Because the attempt is to sing/pray/preach in a most heartfelt way, and because attitude/emotion often is contagious, it is very easy in contemporary society to label this corporate act as “worship.”

The Catholic approach is more formal, more reverent, and as a necessary byproduct of its repetitive nature from week to week, can (although doesn’t necessarily) become rather “rote” and not terribly “heartfelt” to some individuals. I’m not saying this is good or bad, nor that this is/should be the case for devout Catholics. But to outsiders, this is no doubt the perception, and it no doubt turns some off because they doubt that Catholics are “worshipping” God. So let me ask the question:

Should we call the Catholic Mass a “worship” event?

In other words, is “worship” what we are called to do as Christians when we come together in the Church? Or is worship simply one component of the Mass, along with other actions better labeled as something else? Perhaps Catholics have fallen into a Protestant trap by labeling a service in a church as “worship.” Or perhaps they have let the Protestants recharacterize “worship” as an act only undertaken in a Protestant (read: evangelical) church.

My intent is not to gotcha someone, but to best understand how to think of worship. When I was younger, I misunderstood the notion of freedom/liberty because I thought it meant the ability to do whatever I wanted. Only once I grasped the distinction between freedom/liberty versus license did I understand that freedom has a meaning narrower than the ability to do anything I desired, that it means the ability to do what I ought to do. In a similar vein, is “worship” not supposed to be about singing songs or praying to show God his “worth-ship,” but rather something broader or narrower, or something entirely different?

I hope my inquiry makes sense. It seems crucial to me for understanding/passing on an understanding of the difference between the Mass and a Protestant service. Thanks!

i always had a problem with the word worship for some reason. I worship God every time i appreciate nature… or good food, or whatever…
One time i told someone that i get healed at Mass. This non-Catholic seemed 2 get angry & said, “u don’t go to church to get healed, u go to worship God.”
Uh… is this an either-or thing???

 

[jmcrae]

i always had a problem with the word worship for some reason. I worship God every time i appreciate nature… or good food, or whatever…

That’s actually thanksgiving - not worship. To worship God is to make a sacrificial offering to God.

Thanksgiving is good, too - it’s one of the very important things that we should give to God. We should give God adoration, worship, praises, thanksgiving, contrition, and supplication.

One time i told someone that i get healed at Mass. This non-Catholic seemed 2 get angry & said, “u don’t go to church to get healed, u go to worship God.”
Uh… is this an either-or thing???

Not at all. I have also been healed at Mass. But my reason for going, obviously, was to be present for the offering the Sacrifice of the Mass, and to assist in this Sacrifice with my prayers - that is, to worship.

 

[contramundum7]

That’s actually thanksgiving - not worship. To worship God is to make a sacrificial offering to God.

Thanksgiving is good, too - it’s one of the very important things that we should give to God. We should give God adoration, worship, praises, thanksgiving, contrition, and supplication.

Not at all. I have also been healed at Mass. But my reason for going, obviously, was to be present for the offering the Sacrifice of the Mass, and to assist in this Sacrifice with my prayers - that is, to worship.

i don’t agree that what i was doing in appreciating nature or good food (etc) was only thanksgiving. I believe it was a form of worship (which to me means acknowledging God and how awesome he is…). Thanksgiving was secondary 2 that…

 

[Spirithound]

I believe it was a form of worship (which to me means acknowledging God and how awesome he is…).

That then is Adoration. Worship is sacrifice.

 

[distracted]

That then is Adoration. Worship is sacrifice.

you mean i have been Catholic all my life and never knew the definition of worship?

Also: If worship is sacrifice (and only that), no Protestant i know of worships God. Generally, they don’t believe in sacrifice… to speak of. They are always telling Catholics they are wrong to re-sacrifice Christ at the Mass… and that we don’t have to suffer (deliberately or otherwise…) or sacrifice because Jesus did everything at Calvary.

 

[Syele]

Also: If worship is sacrifice (and only that), no Protestant i know of worships God. Generally, they don’t believe in sacrifice… to speak of. They are always telling Catholics they are wrong to re-sacrifice Christ at the Mass… and that we don’t have to suffer (deliberately or otherwise…) or sacrifice because Jesus did everything at Calvary.

This is not correct. I believe Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. I sacrifice my will to the will of God every day. We Sacrifice our own desires/needs when we fast.

 

[distracted]

This is not correct. I believe Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. I sacrifice my will to the will of God every day. We Sacrifice our own desires/needs when we fast.

That’s why i said “to speak of”…
I know this guy who always wants to argue about how Jesus did everything on the Cross and that therefore, we don’t need to have a cross (despite the fact that the Bible, not just the Church, says we are to take up our crosses and follow Him every day). I asked him, “Well, what about the fact that you have [a certain problem]?” He didn’t have an answer…
The Catholics believe that our sufferings in life have meaning and can be aligned with the sufferings of our Lord…
Most Protestants i knwo (which admittedly isn’t many anymore…) believe that since God loves us, we should never suffer… (or soemthing like that). But sin always causes suffering and we are all sinners so we are all going to suffer… The Health Wealth and Prosperity people seem to think that all suffering is from the devil (it is, more or less… but that doesn’t mean we are not meant to have it in our lives…). They act like: If u just pray hard enough and live right… blah blah blah, everything is going to be hunky dory… If u just give x amt. of $ to the church (their church, of course), u will be blessed - and blessed wtih $$ !! (…as if that is the supreme blessing we can receive…). And of course, if you don’t do things “right” & receive such a blessing, it is becaues u r in sin or God is not happy with you (or whatever…).
Anyway… these kinds of whacky beliefs are one good reason I am Catholic.
The primary reason i am Catholic is because it is Christ’s established Church… He only established ONE… (though all other “churches” are part of that Church whether they realize or acknowledge it or not…).

 

[distracted]

It’s interesting you bring this scripture up. The apostle Paul it seems would disagree with your assessment.

Paul said:

The Eucharist can only be offered in select places: Churches consecrated and blessed according to Catholic Canon Law. The idea of offering our bodies as living sacrifices fits better with the language of the prediction of Malichi, which says that the sacrifices will be offered "in every place." To my knowledge, the Catholic Eucharist has never, and is not now, been offered “in every place.”

If “the flesh is of no avail,” why would we have to eat Jesus’ flesh in order to have eternal life? Jesus then states that the words He speaks are “spirit.” Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one. The language fits perfectly with the prior statement of the apostle Paul: “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

One other point - you state:

The Catholic Church is big on “we have what you don’t have” types of arguments. You should watch out for this. Sometimes it is what you *don’t *have that is more important. The Catholics continue to offer sacrafice at the Euchrist, but Jesus offered the final sacrifice…

Human men are limited, and not adequate to be priests…

Jesus offered the final sacrifice. There is no need for further sacrifice, and in fact, by doing so, Catholics minimize the sacrifice of Christ Himself.

You obviously do not understand Catholicism. The Mass is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ’s ONE sacrifice. He told us to “Do this in memory of Me.” One reason we have to do the Mass over and over again is because we humans are SO weak and so in need of this Heavenly Food, the Bread of Life (John 6:27-57) that strengthens us.
If it weren’t for the Eucharist, i would not be a Christian… the other “churches” have no real power to keep me with Christ… I know because i once tried to be a strong Christian while not in the Cahtolic Church…
I know because i know how very weak i am and how needy… how human i am…
A person who is well-catechized in the Catholic Faith rarely falls completely away from Christ and the Church… He/she may fall away from the Church even, but rarely does that person fall completely away from Jesus… and evnetually he/she comes back… But those who are not catechized or who r under-catechized often do…
Anyway, i am wondering about your spiritual journey. Were you raised in a particular “church”? What are your “core” beliefs, etc??

 

[mepatri]

All of these things have been addressed in this and other posts. Your claims are unfounded and your Scriptures are taken out of context. I could again dispute everything you have just said but blasting each other with quotes and proofs will accomplish nothing. You are convinced in you heart that the teachings of the Catholic Church are wrong. But you are not going to convince me or, I doubt, any other Catholic here. So how about we set aside our differences on this issue.

Of course, I disagree that my claims are “unfounded” and the Scruptures I quote are “taken out of context” - especially since you have not shown that to be the case, but have only declared it so. However, I agree that we are not going to resolve thousands of years of Protestant/Catholic disagreements here on this board. Fine; if you don’t feel you can discuss these issues with profit to both sides, I’m willing to drop them.

 

[Montgomeryatty]

… if you don’t feel you can discuss these issues with profit to both sides, …

Cute. Maybe I’m misreading, but I perceive that you’re portraying the Catholic posters here as if they’re a pack of yahoos who are incapable of arguing without losing their temper.

Let me school you a bit: These fora are designed to discuss the Catholic faith, to educate those who (like myself) are still learning the basics of the faith (although I’ve been a lifelong and studious Baptist), and yes, to defend it from folks like you. But there is a dividing line between an earnest discussion of the faith and your very tired approach of polemical one-upsmanship. There is a vast wealth of knowledge on these fora, and although there is also the occasional poster who states mere opinion, many of the people here are extremely knowledgeable about the defined teachings and dogma of the Church. I understand that it may be difficult or time-consuming to research every question or objection before posting anew, but from the tenor of your posts, you are not seeking to better understand the Church, but to simply blast away at her. What is so laughable, and yet so very very Protestant, is that to attempt this with any reasonable expectation of success, you have to sincerely believe in your heart that you are the very first person in 2000 years who has “discovered” some obvious truth. And usually, you think you can win because you sincerely believe that Catholics don’t read the Bible. Yet for at least 500 years, opponents have been slogging away at the Church, using every rhetorical and textual weapon in their arsenal. The Church still stands, and to do so, she doesn’t have to “re-invent” herself every decade or century. She merely has to keep her fidelity to truth, which she can do because Jesus built her and because he promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against her.

Please, mepatri, you can be a principled, serious, devout, God-fearing, God-loving Protestant without attacking the Church. You won’t win anyway. The Catholics who regularly post here have encountered every single objection you can throw at them, many of them were fundamentalists, Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Mormon, Jewish, etc., and they would have retained numerous professional and familial relationships and positions of honor had they retained their old faith. Many looked for every possible reason to avoid the Roman Catholic Church. Many lost jobs or family members upon making their decision. To suggest that these folks didn’t think through or research the Church before converting, but just willy-nilly woke up one day and said, “I think I’ll become Catholic” and then proceeded to dig for boostrapping argumeints to justify their hasty decisions is beyond ridiculous, it is patently offensive and shameful.

Oh, and I posted several comments in response to you on Friday to which I notice you haven’t responded. Thoughts?

 

[amightyfortress]

In the Lutheran church, we are still rooted in our Roman Catholic roots with the service (mass) liturgy rites.

It begins with this…

Opening Hymn
Confession of Sins
Kyrie
Hymn of Praise (gloria)
Salutation
Readings - normally 2 readings with a psalm also
Alleluia verse
Lenten Verse (during Lent)
Gospel response (praise to you, O Christ etc.)
Sermon (homily)
Creed (one of both)
Hymn of the Day
Prayers of the Day (Lord in your mercy; hear our prayer)
Peace (shaking hands)
Offertory (Create in Me -psalm 51 or other)
Great Thanksgiving
Sanctus
Agnus Dei
**Nunc Dimittis - a Lutheran addition- (Song of Simeon - Lord, now you let us depart)
Blessing
Amen
Closing Hymn

See, we have a lot in common!

 

[jmcrae]

you mean i have been Catholic all my life and never knew the definition of worship?

Also: If worship is sacrifice (and only that), no Protestant i know of worships God.

Is it so impossible to believe that many or some Protestants don’t actually worship God, but that they mistake prayer, praise, thanksgiving, and petition for worship?

Generally, they don’t believe in sacrifice… to speak of. They are always telling Catholics they are wrong to re-sacrifice Christ at the Mass… and that we don’t have to suffer (deliberately or otherwise…) or sacrifice because Jesus did everything at Calvary.

That’s an accurate summary of what a great many Protestants believe.

 

[Spirithound]

you mean i have been Catholic all my life and never knew the definition of worship?

It would appear so. Now, that being said, I can see/read that you are a faithful Catholic, and so you actually have been worshipping God all along by going to Mass. Also, the definition of worship that I am providing is a technical one. It is not the definition that the world generally uses, so we can be excused for not knowing it (i didn’t know either until a year or so ago, when it was brought to my attention).

Also: If worship is sacrifice (and only that), no Protestant i know of worships God. Generally, they don’t believe in sacrifice… to speak of. They are always telling Catholics they are wrong to re-sacrifice Christ at the Mass… and that we don’t have to suffer (deliberately or otherwise…) or sacrifice because Jesus did everything at Calvary.

Again, although I can’t speak for the Protestants you know, it would appear so, although I have been told that some Protestants do give something up for Lent .