The Mass vs. a Christian service

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awfulthings9

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I’ve been invited to do the 10 minute apologetics spots for our diocese television program, Our Catholic Life. For one of the spots I wanted to discuss how cool the Mass is, and why it looks so different from a “hip” seeker service at a Protestant church. I want this spot to be an answer to all those who claim, “The Mass doesn’t ‘feed’ me” or “I don’t get anything out of it”, comparing it to the big screen and coffee-shop atmosphere of their friend’s church. The main points I want to hit on is that, at the Mass:
  • Christ is made present body and blood, instead of just in spirit.
  • We see worship modeled after Heavenly worship, and as such, we have “entered” heaven through our worship
  • We aren’t going in order to “get something out of it”, but to offer ourselves to God
  • We experience worship that is packed full of Scripture, from the readings and psalms to the little idiosyncracies of our liturgy
  • We are made present at Calvary through the re-presentation of the sacrafice
  • All five of our senses are touched
  • We are participating in a liturgy that has its roots in the earliest centuries
  • We are participating in a liturgy which is done essentially the same way throughout the world, emphasizing the unity of the church
  • We are fed, not with the emotional highs of cool music and catchy sermons, but with the “real food” of the sacraments and the knowledge that we are worshiping as Christ intended

Any feedback, particularly things that I forgot but shouldn’t have, would be great. Thanks.​

 
Dead center! We come to Mass not to be entertained but in the commune of our faith to be in His presence in a way that cannot be experienced anywhere else.
 
Great list! I’d add one point, slightly modified from one of yours:
awfulthings9 said:
  • We aren’t going in order to “get something out of it”, but to offer ourselves to God
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I’d emphasize, though, that we go to offer Christ to God. His sacrifice outweighs anything we can offer to God.

Jeremy
 
Have you read Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper? Its a quick read and it may give you some more ideas. I can’t think of anything you’re missing off of the top of my head, but it seems as though you’ve got a solid list of valid explanations. All I think you need to do is to organize your points so that they fade into one another. Try to weave everything together and don’t forget to demonstrate the Biblical basis for anyone who may be interested in its sciptural relevance.

Is there a way I can listen in? Godspeed!
lovetony
 
I have read Lamb’s Supper.

The show airs within the Jefferson City Diocese. Four of my episodes have already aired (Purgatory, Scandal, Eucharist, Contraception), and I am so pleased at the feedback, both from Catholics who knew to tune in, as well as others who just happened to be flipping through the channels. I’m not sure of anyway to listen in, but send me a private message and I’ll let you know how to get in touch. I do an apologetics e-newsletter which puts all the shows, as well as many other topics, into written form.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Some great advice.

-Spencer
 
I would briefly go over the first two Masses in the Bible:

At the Last Supper, you have readings from the Scriptures, as well as songs sung from the Psalms, then a lecture from the leader on the first Passover. All this is the Liturgy of the Word which we celebrate today.

Then you have the consecration of the Eucharist, what we call the Liturgy of the Eucharist today.

On the road to Emmaus you have the same thing - Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist.

On the road, Jesus opened up their hearts by telling the disciples how the OT Scriptures are all fulfilled in Him - Liturgy of the Word. Then they went upstairs and celebrated the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Even Paul details the Mass in Acts when the boy fell out the window.

This is the basic structure of the Mass nearly 2000 years later! Some people call themself a Biblical Church? You can’t get more Biblical than the Catholic Mass!!!
 
awfulthings9 said:
I’ve been invited to do the 10 minute apologetics spots for our diocese television program, Our Catholic Life. For one of the spots I wanted to discuss how cool the Mass is, and why it looks so different from a “hip” seeker service at a Protestant church. I want this spot to be an answer to all those who claim, “The Mass doesn’t ‘feed’ me” or “I don’t get anything out of it”, comparing it to the big screen and coffee-shop atmosphere of their friend’s church. The main points I want to hit on is that, at the Mass:
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First of all, what do you mean, “Catholic Mass vs. Christian service”? Obviously the Mass is Christian.

Second, the comparison/contrast method is a very bad one in this case. It sounds negative, but far more importantly you are probably going to wind up with a silly caricature of “seeker services.” You will distract from your main point if you engage in this kind of polemic.

Otherwise, I think the positive points you make are excellent.

In spite of my discomfort with your proposed polemic, I wish you could read an article I was given several years ago about the roots of contemporary Protestant worship in 19th-century revivalism, and how this model differs from the early Church’s model (which mainline Protestants are trying to revive–some free-church folks are as well). The points were actually similar to yours.

Edwin
 
Hi,
I would agree with Edwin. If you compare/contrast you will only make more divisions amongst catholics and protestants.

If you just stick with all the great things about Mass you would be better off.

We should always be positive and that does not include putting others down–which is really what you would be doing to christian services.
 
Hey guys,

Last two points well taken.

In fact, I am always very tactful in the actual filming of the spots, but for clarity on these forums, I needed to emphasize the undertone of the message.

My intent in the presentation won’t be to trash a Protestant service, but to contrast what the mass offers vs. what some think the mass offers. Since what people “think” the mass should offer is based on Protestant seeker services (in large part), I used that basis for this post, not intending to portray any sort of a charicature.

And yes, I know that Catholics are Christians. However, our worship is not a “service”. That was my point but a liturgical celebration - a “mass”. We are all Christians, but I was focusing on the distinctness of a “Catholic Christian” mass and assumed that all would recognize that, by “Catholic”, I meant Catholic Christian. Sorry.

Anyway, all that aside, thank you for your responses. You can trust that I don’t alienate anyone in the presentation, which would be completely counterproductive to our mission at OCL.
 
I don’t buy the service/liturgy distinction. Leitourgia is pretty much the exact Greek equivalent of “service.” It’s one of those artificial verbal distinctions that would be better expressed in other words–or not at all.

One bit of feedback that probably doesn’t fit your presentation. When I go to Mass, one of the things I really appreciate is the sense that people are there because something real is happening. I actually think that the simplicity of the post-Vatican-II ceremonial is very helpful that way. There’s a simple altar and the priest in these green vestments (or whatever the color happens to be that day) holding up a cup. And somehow the whole universe is centered on that one act.

The reason I’m not a Catholic is that I believe something real is happening in Protestant Eucharists as well! But for Protestants who don’t see the Eucharist as the central act of worship (which, alas, is probably most North American Protestants), this can be a powerful experience. I was lucky or unlucky enough to be around sacramental Protestants and so got “sidetracked” from the usual path (unsacramental Protestantism to Catholicism).

This isn’t really an addition to what you are saying so much as a confirmation. A man (or, in my view but obviously not yours, a woman) in green holding up a wafer and a cup. That’s the center of the universe in a way a praise band never can be.

Now how to get this across to the average Protestant?

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
I don’t buy the service/liturgy distinction. Leitourgia is pretty much the exact Greek equivalent of “service.” It’s one of those artificial verbal distinctions that would be better expressed in other words–or not at all.

One bit of feedback that probably doesn’t fit your presentation. When I go to Mass, one of the things I really appreciate is the sense that people are there because something real is happening. I actually think that the simplicity of the post-Vatican-II ceremonial is very helpful that way. There’s a simple altar and the priest in these green vestments (or whatever the color happens to be that day) holding up a cup. And somehow the whole universe is centered on that one act.

The reason I’m not a Catholic is that I believe something real is happening in Protestant Eucharists as well! But for Protestants who don’t see the Eucharist as the central act of worship (which, alas, is probably most North American Protestants), this can be a powerful experience. I was lucky or unlucky enough to be around sacramental Protestants and so got “sidetracked” from the usual path (unsacramental Protestantism to Catholicism).

This isn’t really an addition to what you are saying so much as a confirmation. A man (or, in my view but obviously not yours, a woman) in green holding up a wafer and a cup. That’s the center of the universe in a way a praise band never can be.

Now how to get this across to the average Protestant?

Edwin
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All I have to say is that for my peace of mind as a Catholic, I am glad I did not meet up with you, Edwin, before I returned to the Catholic Church since I always find your logic compelling even if ultimately I disagree with your conclusion, at times.

My walk was non-Sacramental Protestant to Catholic. Much easier.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
 
I would point out how Christian service became the norm for Protestants instead of the Sacrifice of the Mass, the true worship of God as celebrated in Heaven and on Earth.

As all had rejected Catholicism, the reformation virtually took the old Ante-Mass or the Mass of the Catechumens, and made it the skeleton of their service. The altar became a table, the sacrificial Mass was replaced by an act explaining the Scripture, preaching became the norm and the pulpit became more important than the altar.

Whatever happened to the prophesy that there will be a pure offering from all the corners of the world from sunrise to sunset? You certainly will not see that in Christian Service, right?
 
MariaG said:
All I have to say is that for my peace of mind as a Catholic, I am glad I did not meet up with you, Edwin, before I returned to the Catholic Church since I always find your logic compelling even if ultimately I disagree with your conclusion, at times.

My walk was non-Sacramental Protestant to Catholic. Much easier.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria
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I know. It would have been easier if I’d managed that too. Unfortunately (perhaps) I decided to go to grad school at a place (Duke) where there were a lot of very sacramental Protestants. Perhaps if I’d gone to Notre Dame (which would have been my second choice) things might have been different.

On the other hand, George Marsden (an evangelical scholar who taught at Duke and then moved to Notre Dame, and tried to persuade me to choose ND over Duke) thought that I would have been less likely to be interested in Catholicism if I’d gone to ND. He may have had a point. Certainly being among the evangelicals again (I’m teaching at an evangelical college) is making me hanker after Catholicism. . . . There’s a fairly small minority of Catholic students at my college, and I’m trying to forge links with them as much as possible. They aren’t exactly persecuted (the folks here are very friendly and kind), but they do feel a bit like fish out of water, I think. (This is a strongly Catholic and Lutheran area–the offices of Our Sunday Visitor are just down the road.)

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
This isn’t really an addition to what you are saying so much as a confirmation. A man (or, in my view but obviously not yours, a woman) in green holding up a wafer and a cup.
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Or rather, what appears to be a wafer 🙂
That’s the center of the universe in a way a praise band never can be.
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Amen to that!

Jeremy
 
awfulthings9 said:
I’ve been invited to do the 10 minute apologetics spots for our diocese television program, Our Catholic Life. For one of the spots I wanted to discuss how cool the Mass is, and why it looks so different from a “hip” seeker service at a Protestant church. I want this spot to be an answer to all those who claim, “The Mass doesn’t ‘feed’ me” or “I don’t get anything out of it”, comparing it to the big screen and coffee-shop atmosphere of their friend’s church. The main points I want to hit on is that, at the Mass:
  • Christ is made present body and blood, instead of just in spirit.
  • We see worship modeled after Heavenly worship, and as such, we have “entered” heaven through our worship
  • We aren’t going in order to “get something out of it”, but to offer ourselves to God
  • We experience worship that is packed full of Scripture, from the readings and psalms to the little idiosyncracies of our liturgy
  • We are made present at Calvary through the re-presentation of the sacrafice
  • All five of our senses are touched
  • We are participating in a liturgy that has its roots in the earliest centuries
  • We are participating in a liturgy which is done essentially the same way throughout the world, emphasizing the unity of the church
  • We are fed, not with the emotional highs of cool music and catchy sermons, but with the “real food” of the sacraments and the knowledge that we are worshiping as Christ intended

Any feedback, particularly things that I forgot but shouldn’t have, would be great. Thanks.​

Click to expand...
Your list is very good.

I would add 2 things that are significant in Mass:
  • In the Penitential Rite, we acknowledge our failures, ask and receive the Lord 's forgiveness.
  • During the presentation of the gifts,we offer our own lives (joy, hope, pain, suffering,etc.) along with the sacrifice of our Lord to our Heavenly Father.
 
Contarini said:
I know. It would have been easier if I’d managed that too. Unfortunately (perhaps) I decided to go to grad school at a place (Duke) where there were a lot of very sacramental Protestants. Perhaps if I’d gone to Notre Dame (which would have been my second choice) things might have been different.

On the other hand, George Marsden (an evangelical scholar who taught at Duke and then moved to Notre Dame, and tried to persuade me to choose ND over Duke) thought that I would have been less likely to be interested in Catholicism if I’d gone to ND. He may have had a point. Certainly being among the evangelicals again (I’m teaching at an evangelical college) is making me hanker after Catholicism. . . . There’s a fairly small minority of Catholic students at my college, and I’m trying to forge links with them as much as possible. They aren’t exactly persecuted (the folks here are very friendly and kind), but they do feel a bit like fish out of water, I think. (This is a strongly Catholic and Lutheran area–the offices of Our Sunday Visitor are just down the road.)

Edwin
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I sometimes wonder if our Catholic colleges do more harm to Catholics and those who are inquiring or if they help. I certainly have heard stories both ways.

I am glad you are reaching out to the Catholics in that environment. I know you will help to bolster any of those who may be faltering and falling for the Evangelical/non-sacramental arguments.

I think you are my favorite Catholic apologist but is still a Protestant:love:

God Bless,
Maria
 
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