The Mass - worship service or community gathering?

[Ontheway]

Why do we go to mass? We call it the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. A ritual worship of God. There are some Catholics who stress the community more than the worship. Is it possible to combine both aspects?

 

[Richard_White]

The whole point of the Mass is not on us per se, but on God. The re-presentation of Our Lord Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross is offered to God the Father, as well as our edification through the Holy Scriptures and our reception of Jesus in Holy Communion. Yes, we go to Mass together and act as a community of Christ while present there, which is also highly important to remind us hat we, as God’s people, are the part of the Body of Christ. However, the most important part is the Sacrifice.

May God bless you abundantly and forever!

 

[Usige]

This is the way I see it. You can have a mass with just a priest or with a priest and 10,000 people. The mass isn’t different if the people are there, so it would seem the communal gathering aspect is not the essential element. That’s not to say communal worship isn’t a big part of it, but rather worship has to be the core. Worship should not be downplayed to increase the communal aspect.

 

[chimo]

Why do we go to mass? We call it the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. A ritual worship of God. There are some Catholics who stress the community more than the worship. Is it possible to combine both aspects?

It is both a sacrifice and communal. The Catholic Church tends to lean toward the sacrificial while the Eastern Churches tend to lean more toward the communal aspect. That is why the Easterners call the Holy Communion the Divine Liturgy. Liturgy is a word which means work of the people. The Catholic Church tends to reveal more the work of God while the Eastern Churches teach more the work of the people. What we need to do is to see both as vitally important, the work of God (sacrifice) and the work of the people (communal).

 

[Mintaka]

Whoa, whoa!

Chimo said:

Liturgy is a word which means work of the people.

Actually, no.

Leitourgia means “public work,” like a dam or a bridge. Specifically in Greco-Roman times, however, it meant a public work funded with his own money by a rich guy or a politician, in order to benefit the public (and to impress people and get their goodwill, if he was a politician). So when somebody like the industrialist Andrew Carnegie went around funding and building public library buildings (Carnegie libraries), he was doing a public work, a leitourgia. A lot of leitourgia stuff was a public work on a schedule, like rich people funding a public festival. So in that way, it also means “a duty done for the public good.”

(Here’s a link to the word in Liddell’s big old Greek dictionary online. And here’s a link to the verb root, with helpful literary quotes. Serving in public office (like getting elected to Congress, or being appointed to do something) is also a historic example of liturgizing! Serving a master as a slave does is also liturgizing, and there’s a pretty sad example in the dictionary. Finally, they note that serving the gods in an office, like being a pagan priest, was also liturgizing.)

Pope Benedict XVI goes into detail about “leitourgia” in one of his Jesus of Nazareth books, if I recall correctly. That’s why he calls Mass “a banquet for beggars” (or words to that effect). Jesus is the rich man establishing Mass for our good; we participate as the community of beggars that He created and called together. It’s not our work, even if He lets us serve table or do dishes. He is the one sacrificing Himself for us, and then feeding us with His Body.

Now, that said, we are told to ask God for things together, preferably, and we are told that whenever two or three gather together, He is there. But even when a priest says Mass alone, he is gathering together with Jesus and the saints and the angels, as the Mass prayers explicitly mention. So the communal element is built in, and need not be forced.

So, is the Mass about sacrifice? or worship? or receiving a Sacrament? or a community gathering and feast?

As with a lot of things in Catholic teaching, the answer to the question is, “Yes. All of the above.” To lose or neglect any element is to neglect the Holy Spirit’s teaching about Mass.

 

[Ontheway]

“The Eucharist is a true sacrifice, not just a commemorative meal, as “Bible Christians” insist.”

This is a quote from Catholic Answers and it points to the potential Protestant influence on the way we celebrate the Mass, particularly in the so called “Bible belt”.
Are we being influenced too much by our protestant brethren in this respect?

 

[babochka]

Why do we go to mass? We call it the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. A ritual worship of God. There are some Catholics who stress the community more than the worship. Is it possible to combine both aspects?

I would say that it is not possible to separate both aspects.

The Mass is communal worship, even if only the priest is present. In the East, the priest cannot say the Divine Liturgy without at least one other person present. The community aspect of the worship is that critical. In the West, this is not the case, but it is understood that the body of Christ is invisibly present in the saints.

Here is a wonderful, chill-inducing story that I love:

There was once a priest who did not want to serve the liturgy because it was a cold winter day.
The temperature was 10 degrees below zero and the priest knew that the only person who was likely to come to the service was the chanter. The priest had no idea about the Church’s teaching on the presence of the Triumphant Church and how the Divine Liturgy benefits the living and the departed. With difficulty he forced himself to go to church. On the way to church he kept wishing that the chanter would not come so that he would not have to serve and go home. However, the chanter did come.
The priest did the Prothesis (or Proskomedia, the service of preparing the holy gifts) in a hurry and began the Divine Liturgy. Shortly after, some bishops, priests, monks and nuns and some lay people arrived. Most of them sat in the choir section and began to chant so beautifully that the priest forgot about how cold and lonely he was earlier. His whole body was warm and his whole being was all a flame…. When he did the small entrance he noticed that the church was full of people – most of them familiar – he did not pay much attention and just continued with the Divine Liturgy.
When the time came for the Sanctification of the Holy Gifts he saw three bishops, brightly clothed and radiant entering the Holy Altar. They knelt with him and prayed. The priest then stood up very carefully with fear, took the censer and in a loud voice said,
‘Especially our All Holy, Immaculate, Most Blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary…’.
The soul of the priest was amazed and filled with divine joy. Peace and heavenly stillness, hesychia, dominated his inner self. When the time came for the elevation and dividing of the Host (Lamb) the whole church filled with the sweetest melodies. The whole multitude of people who were present along with the monks, priests and bishops chanted not only once but many times,
‘One is Holy, One is Lord: Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen’.
Next they chanted the Holy Communion hymn,
‘Taste and see that the Lord is good, Alleluia.’
The priest was wondering what to do. Should he partake of the Holy Communion first or step aside for the three bishops who were present. Just as he was thinking this, one of the bishops nodded to him indicating that he should receive Holy Communion and then to Unify and Place the remaining of the portions of the Lamb into the Chalice along with the portions in memory of the Holy Theotokos and the Saints. Having completed this the priest then opened the Beautiful Gate … and saw no one in the Church… he turned and looked back into the holy altar, he looked to the right, looked to the left, the bishops had disappeared, he stood there speechless, amazed. He slowly opened his mouth and chanted the next petition,
‘With the fear of God and faith and love, draw near …,’
and the chanter slowly drew near to take Holy Communion. The priest was still amazed, still wondering! The whole Triumphant Church was present. All those present in the church were persons familiar to him, they were persons that had departed from this life and he would from time to time commemorate their names during each liturgy:
‘that’s why they were present, that’s why they all seemed so familiar’, he thought.
As for the bishops in the altar they were the Three Hierarchs: Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Basil the Great and Saint Gregory the Theologian.
So many years of study at university, so much research and so many sleepless nights he spent studying and these efforts were not able to give him not even one drop of the sweetness and divine knowledge that this one Divine Liturgy gave him.

 

[chimo]

Whoa, whoa!

Chimo said:

Actually, no.

Leitourgia means “public work,” like a dam or a bridge. Specifically in Greco-Roman times, however, it meant a public work funded with his own money by a rich guy or a politician, in order to benefit the public (and to impress people and get their goodwill, if he was a politician). So when somebody like the industrialist Andrew Carnegie went around funding and building public library buildings (Carnegie libraries), he was doing a public work, a leitourgia. A lot of leitourgia stuff was a public work on a schedule, like rich people funding a public festival. So in that way, it also means “a duty done for the public good.”

(Here’s a link to the word in Liddell’s big old Greek dictionary online. And here’s a link to the verb root, with helpful literary quotes. Serving in public office (like getting elected to Congress, or being appointed to do something) is also a historic example of liturgizing! Serving a master as a slave does is also liturgizing, and there’s a pretty sad example in the dictionary. Finally, they note that serving the gods in an office, like being a pagan priest, was also liturgizing.)

Pope Benedict XVI goes into detail about “leitourgia” in one of his Jesus of Nazareth books, if I recall correctly. That’s why he calls Mass “a banquet for beggars” (or words to that effect). Jesus is the rich man establishing Mass for our good; we participate as the community of beggars that He created and called together. It’s not our work, even if He lets us serve table or do dishes. He is the one sacrificing Himself for us, and then feeding us with His Body.

Now, that said, we are told to ask God for things together, preferably, and we are told that whenever two or three gather together, He is there. But even when a priest says Mass alone, he is gathering together with Jesus and the saints and the angels, as the Mass prayers explicitly mention. So the communal element is built in, and need not be forced.

So, is the Mass about sacrifice? or worship? or receiving a Sacrament? or a community gathering and feast?

As with a lot of things in Catholic teaching, the answer to the question is, “Yes. All of the above.” To lose or neglect any element is to neglect the Holy Spirit’s teaching about Mass.

Whoever you are I believe the Orthodox knows more about this since they are the ones which describes their Holy Communion service. It is the work of the people. If you want to know why I will describe it for you. The Mass is the Sacrifice of God or you can say the work of God. I have no problems with that. The Divine Liturgy is also a sacrifice, God’s sacrifice and work. We agree ok. Now God’s work and sacrifice must compliment our work and sacrifice if God’s work and sacrifice will mean anything. This is not all God. Our participation must be there as well. That is why the Orthodox emphasizes the work of the people. This synergy of what God does and what we do is vitally important. It is like this. When you are young you raided the refrigerator whenever you wanted. Your parents did not mind because you were young. When you come of age your parents than would decide for you to learn how to work so that you would understand who put those goods in the refrigerator. Now if this works in a family it also works in a Church. You come every week to Church and God opens His “refrigerator” to you. Now God is like your parents and He will want you to put something back into the “refrigerator”. He will want you to do this when you become of age. This then becomes your work and sacrifice when you decide to put something back into the refrigerator. This is what is meant by the work of the people. Your work and sacrifice means a lot to God. Without it you are just raiding the “refrigerator” every time. Now most believing Catholics whether they think of it or not do participate into the Mass much like the believing Orthodox with their Divine Liturgies and you are giving your work and sacrifice to compliment God’s work and sacrifice. If you would like to know any person’s work and sacrifice tends to be what they do outside the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. This is what we are all called to do. If there is no work and sacrifice by us outside the Mass and the Divine Liturgy than what God does for us at the Mass and the Divine Liturgy would have no affect to change us or any part of the world for that matter. Your works of mercy and sacrifice outside the Mass and the Divine Liturgy would make the Mass and Divine Liturgy more uplifting.

 

[Ontheway]

This is the way I see it. You can have a mass with just a priest or with a priest and 10,000 people. The mass isn’t different if the people are there, so it would seem the communal gathering aspect is not the essential element. That’s not to say communal worship isn’t a big part of it, but rather worship has to be the core. Worship should not be downplayed to increase the communal aspect.

This is what I always thought about the Mass. Of course, we do it together as a community, but for me it is still God worship and not a community sing-along.

 

[Ontheway]

It is both a sacrifice and communal. The Catholic Church tends to lean toward the sacrificial while the Eastern Churches tend to lean more toward the communal aspect. That is why the Easterners call the Holy Communion the Divine Liturgy. Liturgy is a word which means work of the people. The Catholic Church tends to reveal more the work of God while the Eastern Churches teach more the work of the people. What we need to do is to see both as vitally important, the work of God (sacrifice) and the work of the people (communal).

My recollection of an Orthodox service is that most of it is conducted by the priest out of sight of the congregation. He is performing the ritual behind the screen (I forget the name of - the screen that separates the altar from the congregation). Thus the community is left to its own devices, so to speak. There is that wall of separation between the priest and the community.

I recall an Easter Vigil service where at one point (2am?) everyone left the church to go down to the parish hall to have coffee and pastries, while the priest continued to deliver his sermon to an empty church.

 

[chimo]

My recollection of an Orthodox service is that most of it is conducted by the priest out of sight of the congregation. He is performing the ritual behind the screen (I forget the name of - the screen that separates the altar from the congregation). Thus the community is left to its own devices, so to speak. There is that wall of separation between the priest and the community.

I recall an Easter Vigil service where at one point (2am?) everyone left the church to go down to the parish hall to have coffee and pastries, while the priest continued to deliver his sermon to an empty church.

Your experiences of witnessing a Divine Liturgy in its fullness was probably not a good choice at the Church you had attended to. This can occur with many of the Orthodox Churches. Of course you may find this out in many Catholic parishes where the congregation are not tuned in. When an Orthodox Church does live the Liturgy it is more profound when witnessing to it. The movements of the peoples throughout a Divine Liturgy is not something a Catholic is used to but when observed will give an impression something else is going on. The Divine Liturgy is much longer than the Catholic Mass. The amount of prayers in one Divine Liturgy will probably be equivalent to three to four Catholic Masses. You take out the hymns in a Catholic Mass and you will see what I mean. Orthodox by and large pray more in their Divine Liturgy.
In smaller parishes which I am part of the congregation does participate more. The Divine Liturgy has many parts to it which if you studied or take part in (hopefully to a parish that is participating) teaches the average Orthodox how to participate into the Christian life. The Icons, the smells and bells, the enormous crossing oneself throughout the Liturgy, the acknowledgement of Mary perhaps at least 13X in the Liturgy, the expression of prayers that speak differently than what the Catholic Mass prayers do, the mystical language which the Divine Liturgies are famous for, everyone including babies and young children coming up to receive the Lord and the informal rituals have a common home among those who belong to the Eastern Churches. There is a lot going on. You may not see it at first but it is there. The sense of Orthodox worship is the same as Catholic worship in that we must take this worship out into the world. If you do not than the purpose of the Divine Liturgy (and the Mass) has been neglected.

 

[babochka]

My recollection of an Orthodox service is that most of it is conducted by the priest out of sight of the congregation. He is performing the ritual behind the screen (I forget the name of - the screen that separates the altar from the congregation). Thus the community is left to its own devices, so to speak. There is that wall of separation between the priest and the community.

Was the liturgy that you attended in English? I’m wondering if you missed something because of a language barrier. The Divine Liturgy is most certainly not the priest doing his own thing behind the iconostasis. Much of it is a dialog between the priest and the people and the people’s part is integral to the liturgy. Community left to its own devices? The congregation has a specific and significant role in the service and it cannot be conducted without a congregation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, in the East, it is not even permissible/possible for the priest to pray the Divine Liturgy without at least one other person present.

I recall an Easter Vigil service where at one point (2am?) everyone left the church to go down to the parish hall to have coffee and pastries, while the priest continued to deliver his sermon to an empty church.

Well, that’s just sad. It probably wasn’t within a Slavic tradition, as they’d be waiting after the service for the priest to bless the foods. Anyway, this is clearly not ideal in any circumstance.

 

[babochka]

This is what I always thought about the Mass. Of course, we do it together as a community, but for me it is still God worship and not a community sing-along.

Well, Mass is not a community sing-along and cannot be.

It is objectively worship, objectively a sacrifice, and objectively communal in its nature. The original question asked if the Mass is a worship service or a community gathering. It is a gathering of the community - the body of Christ - for worship. Why do we have to try to make it one or the other?

 

[ProVobis]

Well, Mass is not a community sing-along and cannot be.

It is objectively worship, objectively a sacrifice, and objectively communal in its nature. The original question asked if the Mass is a worship service or a community gathering. It is a gathering of the community - the body of Christ - for worship. Why do we have to try to make it one or the other?

See, this is where things get confusing. When we are asked to “amen” the “Body of Christ” before we receive, we acknowledge the Transubstantiation that has taken place, not that we are part of any community we don’t know much about. You may very well be right, but in another context, for sure.

 

[babochka]

See, this is where things get confusing. When we are asked to “amen” the “Body of Christ” before we receive, we acknowledge the Transubstantiation that has taken place, not that we are part of any community we don’t know much about. You may very well be right, but in another context, for sure.

The fact that you don’t know much about the community that you are part of doesn’t change the reality. Community is vital; it is not optional.

God himself is a community of three persons. The Trinity is the model for our very existence, as we are made in the image and likeness of God. How can you accept that the Mass is worship that includes all the angels and saints, yet considers the other members of the Body of Christ present, those here on earth, to be incidental to that worship?

As far as the church being the Body of Christ and the Eucharist being the body of Christ, (Orthodox) Saint John Maximovitch says it so much better than I ever could.

In the Holy Scriptures the Church is repeatedly called the Body of Christ."Who (Paul) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, … for His Body’s sake, which is the Church (Col. 1:24), the Apostle Paul writes about himself.

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, says he, are given by Christ “. . .for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:11-12).

At the same time, bread and wine are made into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Divine Liturgy, and the faithful partake thereof. Christ Himself ordained it so, communicating His apostles at the Mystical Supper with the words, “Take, eat; this is My Body; … Drink ye all of it; For this is My Blood of the New Testament” (Mat. 26:26-28).

How is the Body of Christ at the same time both the Church and the Holy Mystery? Are the faithful both members of the Body of Christ, the Church, and also communicants of the Body of Christ in the Holy Mysteries?

In neither instance is this name “Body of Christ” used metaphorically, but rather in the most basic sense. of the word. We believe that the Holy Mysteries which keep the form of bread and wine are the very Body and the very Blood of ChriSt. We likewise believe and confess that Christ is the Son of the Living God, come into the world to save sinners, and become true man, that His flesh, taken from the Virgin Mary, was true human flesh; that body and soul. Christ was a true man, in all respects like man, except sin, and at the same time remaining true God. The Divine nature was neither diminished nor changed in the Son of God in this incarnation, likewise the human nature was not changed at this incarnation, but retained in full all human qualities.

You can read the rest at orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_church.aspx.

 

[ProVobis]

Actually the priest’s formula (in both forms of the Mass) is “May the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve my soul into everlasting life. Amen.” It is also expressed that way for the communicants in the EF,

Each of us gets judged by God one by one in the Immediate Judgement. Communities aren’t judged until the Last Judgement.

 

[babochka]

Actually the priest’s formula (in both forms of the Mass) is “May the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve my soul into everlasting life. Amen.” It is also expressed that way for the communicants in the EF,

Each of us gets judged by God one by one in the Immediate Judgement. Communities aren’t judged until the Last Judgement.

How does that contradict anything that I said?

Besides, do you imagine that your own judgement won’t involve how you were a part of a community? If the Holy Trinity is a community of love, it is a model for how we are to be with one another. Our own reception of the Eucharist brings us into Communion with Christ, and also into communion with those others who are in communion with Christ. This is the teaching of the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

How does that contradict anything that I said?

As I stated, you may indeed be right and leave it at that. I’m not the deep theological thinker others are here. If it works for you, so be it.

 

[Ontheway]

Was the liturgy that you attended in English? I’m wondering if you missed something because of a language barrier. The Divine Liturgy is most certainly not the priest doing his own thing behind the iconostasis. Much of it is a dialog between the priest and the people and the people’s part is integral to the liturgy. Community left to its own devices? The congregation has a specific and significant role in the service and it cannot be conducted without a congregation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, in the East, it is not even permissible/possible for the priest to pray the Divine Liturgy without at least one other person present.

Well, that’s just sad. It probably wasn’t within a Slavic tradition, as they’d be waiting after the service for the priest to bless the foods. Anyway, this is clearly not ideal in any circumstance.

I admit that it was a long time ago, but very definitely within the Slavic (Reuthenian) tradition in the United States. I do understand the language, (Gospodi pomiluy). The service ended in a sunrise procession around the church.

 

[babochka]

I admit that it was a long time ago, but very definitely within the Slavic (Reuthenian) tradition in the United States. I do understand the language, (Gospodi pomiluy). The service ended in a sunrise procession around the church.

There was no blessing of foods after the service, but people ate anyway? How strange. Even Rusyns who just attend on Pascha ordinarily wouldn’t think of such a thing. Blessing the food is a big deal.

The reason I was asking about a language barrier is because of your impression that the priest just did his own thing behind the iconostasis and the people were left on their own. Ruthenians have a strong tradition of congregational singing and there is a definite interaction between the priest and the people. If there is a deacon, less so because the deacon leads the litanies. At any rate, I am surprised that you would come away with that impression.

On the other hand, my limited exposure to the Extraordinarily Form has left me with somewhat the same impression, that of the priest doing his own thing (silently) and the people doing theirs (silently), with no obvious connection between the two. Perhaps I’m as wrong about the Extraordinary Form as you are about the Divine LIturgy.

By the way, I’m quite impressed that you understand Slavonic. I would say that few Ruthenians, here or in the old country understand more than a barely passable amount.