The Masturbation Journal. Continued. Again.

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Aw, man, that thread was just starting to get really good! I love debates like that! Continue, please? šŸ™‚

I think the Super Catholics have you, TedDC, but keep going! I like your way of thinking, even though my religion binds me to a certain one. šŸ˜‰

Uh…Day 38? I’m starting to lose track.
Nothing too bad actually happened in the past week. I’m starting to lose touch with this forum a little, but I’ve been away over the holidays. Of course there are urges here and there. But there will always be. I’ve actually not much to say, because since my last post, it hasn’t been all that bad. Could I be starting to lose the addiction? Heck no! It was just a lucky week. Hopefully God will pull me all the way out of it.

But now…I want answers. TedDC mentioned the point of smoking. And with that verse from Corinthians…HOW IS SMOKING NOT A MORTAL SIN???
 
i think mortal sin is a big way to describe it but i think that smoking IS a sin…

i think it can be mortal if the person knows he is killing himself & just keeps on without trying to stop…

anyway… i feel your pain about abstaining from sexual gratification. i’ve been celibate for years and years… probably about 90 years by now… 😃 and haven’t done the self thing either in many years…

i cna’t resist the urge sometimes… but i can when i remember what it does to my intimacy with Christ… :eek::eek: and so … FEAR keeps me in check…

i am female… women have just as strong a desire as men do, in case you didn’t know that… i don’t think most women will admit to it… but i don’t care… God knows all about it & He understands, so people should too…

actually, my body is what desires ā€œitā€ā€¦ my mind doesn’t… i desire to be physically near someone i am attracted to, but i don’t desire sex… i think my mind has become virginal again… (???) :confused:

so i am weird… oh well… just not into sex anymore… except for my body…

that damn body… got a mind of its own… I hate that &*^^%$ thing!!! :mad::banghead:
 
Oh yeah, and if you were interested in reading said debate, (and my posts from before), go here.
 
Alright.

Day 38, just a few hours after the first post in this thread.
This SUCKS.
End of story.
 
But now…I want answers. TedDC mentioned the point of smoking. And with that verse from Corinthians…HOW IS SMOKING NOT A MORTAL SIN???
Smoking or more specifically tobacco use is morally neutral; in that by moderation there is no sin. Now since commericial tobacco products aren’t really pure tobacco, the theology on it might be different, but I can’t say for sure. At any rate, smoking packs of cigarettes everyday probably means excess in many cases. Masturbating is mortal sin, no matter how often it is done.
 
Alright.

Day 38, just a few hours after the first post in this thread.
This SUCKS.
End of story.
Does this mean you fell, or you’re frustrated? Either way, God has grace and forgiveness for you, my friend!
 
Smoking or more specifically tobacco use is morally neutral; in that by moderation there is no sin. Now since commericial tobacco products aren’t really pure tobacco, the theology on it might be different, but I can’t say for sure. At any rate, smoking packs of cigarettes everyday probably means excess in many cases. Masturbating is mortal sin, no matter how often it is done.
Really? The claim is that masturbation is wrong because it does not have any purpose and misuses the faculty of procreation; an individual doesn’t need to masturbate to live, and moreover, it is an addictive behavior.

So let’s compare smoking and masturbation:

Smoking: unlike eating, you don’t need to smoke to live. Smoking fulfills no individual life need. It misuses the breathing faculty.
Masturbation: unlike eating, you don’t need to smoke to live. Masturbation fulfills no individual life need. It misuses the natural procreative faculty.

Smoking: can lead to an addiction that’s tough to kick, damages your health, and can affect your human relations.
Masturbation: can lead to an addiction that’s tough to kick, and can affect your human relations (but can’t directly damage physical health)

ISTM that in Natural Law, smoking is unnatural; does not fulfill a basic human need, is damaging to health, is addictive, misuses a faculty (breathing) and moreover can even affect the health of others around us (second hand smoke).

I’d say the evidence against smoking is even more damning than against masturbation.
 
Re

I’d say the evidence against smoking is even more damning than against masturbation.
i’d say you are way off…

sexual disorders/perversions drag you into Hell… sins of sexual impurity lead more to Hell than any other sin. sins against charity come in 2nd.

smoking does not affect one’s sexuality nor does it (normally) involve lack of charity.

it is a sin to self-destruct, but for one thing, not a mortal one usually… & most people who smoke are addicted, & do not smoke to self-destruct…

it soundss like it’s time to spend time with Jesus in the REal Presence, where you will shown the ugliness of this sin & how it affects your soul…
 
Really? The claim is that masturbation is wrong because it does not have any purpose and misuses the faculty of procreation; an individual doesn’t need to masturbate to live, and moreover, it is an addictive behavior.

So let’s compare smoking and masturbation:

Smoking: unlike eating, you don’t need to smoke to live. Smoking fulfills no individual life need. It misuses the breathing faculty.
Masturbation: unlike eating, you don’t need to smoke to live. Masturbation fulfills no individual life need. It misuses the natural procreative faculty.

Smoking: can lead to an addiction that’s tough to kick, damages your health, and can affect your human relations.
Masturbation: can lead to an addiction that’s tough to kick, and can affect your human relations (but can’t directly damage physical health)

ISTM that in Natural Law, smoking is unnatural; does not fulfill a basic human need, is damaging to health, is addictive, misuses a faculty (breathing) and moreover can even affect the health of others around us (second hand smoke).

I’d say the evidence against smoking is even more damning than against masturbation.
Actually smoking is NOT a misuse of the breathing facility. The breathing facility is in fact the correct means to ingest smoke into the body. Masturbation and smoking are to separate topics. Comparing is a system that finds the ā€œlikesā€ of two subjects. They can’t relate on a moral level since one is intrinsically condemned and the other is not. Therefore there is no reason to compare them.
 
i’d say you are way off…

sexual disorders/perversions drag you into Hell… sins of sexual impurity lead more to Hell than any other sin. sins against charity come in 2nd. .
All un-repented mortal sin leads you to hell. If sexual sins lead more to hell, it’s because they are the most commonly committed sin. It doesn’t matter if it’s sexual or not, un-repented mortal sin leads to hell. That is official Church teaching. I note that nowhere in the CCC does it ā€œrateā€ which sins are more likely to lead to hell.

You also seem to assume that I don’t think masturbation is sinful. I did not say that. I said the evidence against smoking as damning is more compelling than for masturbation and I made a comparison to indicate the similarities (and differences) between the two. I do happen to think masturbation is a grave sin but let’s face it if any sin can lead you more quickly to hell, smoking will certainly get you to the gates faster than masturbation will due to its many serious health effects that can shorten your life.
smoking does not affect one’s sexuality nor does it (normally) involve lack of charity.
Smoking most certainly affects health, it is totally useless and it certainly can affect charity as there are few things more annoying than being subjected to someone else’s second-hand smoke. I endured my father’s second-hand smoke for 12 years until he died of smoking-related causes when I was that age. I endured others’ second hand smoke for many more years after that until it was banned in the workplace. Second-hand smoke is proven to have deleterious effects on the health of those who endure it.
it is a sin to self-destruct, but for one thing, not a mortal one usually… & most people who smoke are addicted, & do not smoke to self-destruct…
Anyone who takes up smoking in this day and age, in full knowledge of its effects, can hardly hide behind the excuse of ā€œaddictionā€ at the first, and possibly, several subsequent puffs, until they are addicted. In the same way that smoking is habit-forming and that reduces culpability, the same can be applied to masturbation to reduce it’s culpability as well; it certainly seems though that many on these forums are quick to assume that everyone who commits the sin of masturbation is in a state of mortal sin.

Moreover you conveniently neglect to consider the sinfulness of those who foist these toxic products on us, the tobacco executives who have done such things as develop candy-flavored cigarettes to entice youth to smoke.
it sounds like it’s time to spend time with Jesus in the REal Presence, where you will shown the ugliness of this sin & how it affects your soul…
Again I note that I did not say masturbation was not sinful or ugly. You are the one who is adding to my words what I did not say nor intend to say.

It sounds like you need to practice a little more of that Christian charity you say the lack of is the no. 2 path to hell, and not presume know whether the time I spend in prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament, which is one of my favorite devotions, is adequate or frequent enough for for my salvation.
 
Actually smoking is NOT a misuse of the breathing facility. The breathing facility is in fact the correct means to ingest smoke into the body. Masturbation and smoking are to separate topics. Comparing is a system that finds the ā€œlikesā€ of two subjects. They can’t relate on a moral level since one is intrinsically condemned and the other is not. Therefore there is no reason to compare them.
One is intrisically condemned and the other one should be.

Willfully breathing in a toxic substance that pollutes and reduces your oxygen intake is most certainly a misuse of the breathing faculty. There is no ā€œcorrectā€ means to inject smoke. Ingestion of smoke causes tissue and cellular damage in the lungs and other parts of the body. That is proven. The correct use of the breathing facility is to avoid the ingestion of toxins. Our body has limited filtration capabilities to deal with most environmental toxins, but is overwhelmed (and bypassed) when smoking a cigarette.

In fact the normal breathing pathway is through the nose, unless illness or a short-term need for more oxygen such as in vigorous exercise, requires the use of the mouth to breathe. In smoking a cigarette, when drawing in the smoke one bypasses the body’s natural filtration system, the nose.

If the Church has not condemned this vile and dangerous sin, it should. There is nothing wrong with a Catholic demanding that his Church take a more vigorous role in the condemnation of this dangerous habit.

Fortunately, it appears that ever so slowly, the Church is taking notice. Notice the reference to the effect of smoking on the unborn:

Attack on smoking gets papal blessing
 
One is intrisically condemned and the other one should be.

Willfully breathing in a toxic substance that pollutes and reduces your oxygen intake is most certainly a misuse of the breathing faculty. There is no ā€œcorrectā€ means to inject smoke. Ingestion of smoke causes tissue and cellular damage in the lungs and other parts of the body. That is proven. The correct use of the breathing facility is to avoid the ingestion of toxins. Our body has limited filtration capabilities to deal with most environmental toxins, but is overwhelmed (and bypassed) when smoking a cigarette.

In fact the normal breathing pathway is through the nose, unless illness or a short-term need for more oxygen such as in vigorous exercise, requires the use of the mouth to breathe. In smoking a cigarette, when drawing in the smoke one bypasses the body’s natural filtration system, the nose.

If the Church has not condemned this vile and dangerous sin, it should. There is nothing wrong with a Catholic demanding that his Church take a more vigorous role in the condemnation of this dangerous habit.
You’re argument is with the Church not me. If you think you are smarter than the RCC that’s your business not mine. There are benefits to smoking, but they are moot to this thread. And I’m not here to argue that smoking is a healthy thing to do, but I will defend the Church’s position on it. There is nothing morally wrong with breathing smoke from a cigarette and the church will undoubtedly maintain this position. The damage smoke causes is different for each person and it is up to them to decide whether smoking is okay for them or not. For some people it is beneficial for them to smoke, for others it is not. For those that smoking is likely to result in a chronic disease, smoking would be a grave sin. That is where excess comes in. So with that said and the Church to back up this position you are wrong in saying that lungs is not the proper ingestion for smoke. This is not to say that taking up a smoking habit is okay for everyone. I want to stress that those who smoke do not all smoke in habits. Some smoke in leisure every so often which for many people is the prudent choice.

I will also say that the Catholic Church also maintains that when one believes something is sinful/evil, if in fact the Church has not deemed it sinful makes the individual in error. If a person continues to be in error he or she is sinning. If a person wishes not to engage in something that the Church has no teaching against, he or she is free to do so upon their will though.

I suggest you talk to wise Priest that is familiar with church tradition and teaching. šŸ™‚
 
Actually smoking is NOT a misuse of the breathing facility. The breathing facility is in fact the correct means to ingest smoke into the body. Masturbation and smoking are to separate topics. Comparing is a system that finds the ā€œlikesā€ of two subjects. They can’t relate on a moral level since one is intrinsically condemned and the other is not. Therefore there is no reason to compare them.
Really now? The system which was designed to take in oxygen to be used in the cellular respiration process can be forced to take in poison and filled with tar for no purpose other than one’s personal pleasure and that does NOT constitute abuse? (so long as you don’t do so ā€˜too much’)
 
You’re argument is with the Church not me. If you think you are smarter than the RCC that’s your business not mine. There are benefits to smoking, but they are moot to this thread. And I’m not here to argue that smoking is a healthy thing to do, but I will defend the Church’s position on it. There is nothing morally wrong with breathing smoke from a cigarette and the church will undoubtedly maintain this position. The damage smoke causes is different for each person and it is up to them to decide whether smoking is okay for them or not. For some people it is beneficial for them to smoke, for others it is not. For those that smoking is likely to result in a chronic disease, smoking would be a grave sin. That is where excess comes in. So with that said and the Church to back up this position you are wrong in saying that lungs is not the proper ingestion for smoke. This is not to say that taking up a smoking habit is okay for everyone. I want to stress that those who smoke do not all smoke in habits. Some smoke in leisure every so often which for many people is the prudent choice.

I will also say that the Catholic Church also maintains that when one believes something is sinful/evil, if in fact the Church has not deemed it sinful makes the individual in error. If a person continues to be in error he or she is sinning. If a person wishes not to engage in something that the Church has no teaching against, he or she is free to do so upon their will though.

I suggest you talk to wise Priest that is familiar with church tradition and teaching. šŸ™‚
I’m certainly not smarter than the RCC, but she has taken her time to catch up to the science in the past.

Personally I fail to see many benefits from smoking. The only time I have heard that has been from tobacco companies. My wife is a family physician and works in a small town with a 125-bed hospital. In her nearly 30 years of medical practice she has noted to me that at any given time, more than 50% of the beds in the medical ward are occupied by people directly suffering the effects of smoking; an empirical observation perhaps but one would think that with 30 years of consistency, give or take a couple of beds, there’s something to that. Think of that. This is a hospital where beds are lined up in the corridor because there are so few beds available. Part of that is of course related to our particular system of socialized medicine in Canada; the fact remains that the cost to society, of smoking, in lost productivity, etc, is enormous, and those beds could be used to provide better access to medical care.

In New Brunswick, in 2009, they finally passed a law that prohibits adults from smoking in cars that have children on board. Only now in 2009, does a very small province have the guts to punish people legally, for inflicting toxic fumes on innocent participants, their own children.

Until such time as the Church catches up I will consider, given the massive amount of data we have today, smoking to be sinful. I have particularly little mercy for someone inflicting second-hand smoke on children.

While my dad did that to me, I excuse him based on the fact that 50 years ago he didn’t have the knowledge that today is available at the fingertips of anyone with a functioning brain and an IQ of over 75.

So while there may be no Church-defined sinfulness attached to the act of smoking, the practical reality is that one rarely smokes alone in a vacuum. For example in Canada it’s illegal to sin in any public building, including up to 30 ft from the entrance. Yet the reality in winter is that workers congregate in the doorway outside to smoke and virtually any public building I enter, including a hospital, requires I cross a smokescreen to get in.

Although it is not intrinsically sinful in the Church’s eyes to smoke, indirectly it most certainly is to disobey legitimate public authority on legitimate laws in the interest of the public order, and it most certainly is sinful to inflict second-hand smoke on the unwilling public who may, in many cases, have allergies or conditions exacerbated by the smoke. It is, quite simply, a form of assault.
 
I’m certainly not smarter than the RCC, but she has taken her time to catch up to the science in the past.

Personally I fail to see many benefits from smoking. The only time I have heard that has been from tobacco companies. My wife is a family physician and works in a small town with a 125-bed hospital. In her nearly 30 years of medical practice she has noted to me that at any given time, more than 50% of the beds in the medical ward are occupied by people directly suffering the effects of smoking; an empirical observation perhaps but one would think that with 30 years of consistency, give or take a couple of beds, there’s something to that. Think of that. This is a hospital where beds are lined up in the corridor because there are so few beds available. Part of that is of course related to our particular system of socialized medicine in Canada; the fact remains that the cost to society, of smoking, in lost productivity, etc, is enormous, and those beds could be used to provide better access to medical care.

In New Brunswick, in 2009, they finally passed a law that prohibits adults from smoking in cars that have children on board. Only now in 2009, does a very small province have the guts to punish people legally, for inflicting toxic fumes on innocent participants, their own children.

Until such time as the Church catches up I will consider, given the massive amount of data we have today, smoking to be sinful. I have particularly little mercy for someone inflicting second-hand smoke on children.

While my dad did that to me, I excuse him based on the fact that 50 years ago he didn’t have the knowledge that today is available at the fingertips of anyone with a functioning brain and an IQ of over 75.

So while there may be no Church-defined sinfulness attached to the act of smoking, the practical reality is that one rarely smokes alone in a vacuum. For example in Canada it’s illegal to sin in any public building, including up to 30 ft from the entrance. Yet the reality in winter is that workers congregate in the doorway outside to smoke and virtually any public building I enter, including a hospital, requires I cross a smokescreen to get in.

Although it is not intrinsically sinful in the Church’s eyes to smoke, indirectly it most certainly is to disobey legitimate public authority on legitimate laws in the interest of the public order, and it most certainly is sinful to inflict second-hand smoke on the unwilling public who may, in many cases, have allergies or conditions exacerbated by the smoke. It is, quite simply, a form of assault.
Just because you do not see any benefits from smoking doesn’t make it so that there are none possible. There’s no agreement against bans against smoking around children and whatnot. You don’t need to prove me anything I already know. And legitimate authority has nothing to do with the argument either. The church has no problem with that, but it will not change the position on smoking. I not here to tell you whether it’s more prudent for a smoker to stand 30ft away from another human being or 31ft, but I will defend what is not sinful. The church is not forcing you to smoke, but She will say that it’s wrong to condemn something you do not have the authority to condemn. From what I have read the late Pope JP2 didn’t like smoking at all. In fact I think he supported many smoking bans but despite that he never deemed it a sin to smoke. Science doesn’t make something sinful only the Church has the authority given by Christ to determine that.
 
Really now? The system which was designed to take in oxygen to be used in the cellular respiration process can be forced to take in poison and filled with tar for **no purpose other than one’s personal pleasure **and that does NOT constitute abuse? (so long as you don’t do so ā€˜too much’)
That part isn’t correct. Smoking in accodance to temperance okay provided it is done to merit something positive. Thus although pleasure is source that comes of smoking it should not just the only factor for which a person smokes.
 
That part isn’t correct. Smoking in accodance to temperance okay provided it is done to merit something positive. Thus although pleasure is source that comes of smoking it should not just the only factor for which a person smokes.
Too much appears to be very little indeed according to the American Cancer Society:

How much smoking is too much?

As little as 1 to 4 cigarettes a day. This is quite different than, say, red wine where a glass a day has been shown to have health benefits.

ā€œTemperanceā€ doesn’t really apply to smoking. Any marginal health benefits from smoking for certain specific conditions will be overwhelmed by the negative impact of smoking, statistically:

Some 30 times as many lives are lost due to smoking than saved through lowered incidence of endometrial cancer.
 
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