The meaning of afterlife

[jiml8966]

A question for atheists:

If they dont believe in God and dont believe in an afterlife, why dont they kill themselves? (Just a philosophical question, not being facietous)

For if you dont believe in God you shouldnt care about how your live your lives right? Because there is no caring for your fellow human beings, and why should you endure the inevitable hardships and suffering in this life. Think about it, if you dont believe in God then you wouldnt care about being nice to people or caring about justice, equality, human rights, etc. Because all these things are about loving your fellow human. If you say “Well treating others is the right thing to do” why would you care? Who says its the right thing to do?

I just am interested in an atheists frame of mind regarding these questions.

I understand how an agnostic might think this way as they just question the existance of God.

 

[Didi]

gomer tree:

If you’re curious, I’d also look into Eucharistic Miracles. Sometimes atheists like some proof beyond the natural “proofs” that the rest of us see. If you have an open mind, Eucharistic Miracles are simply unexplainable apart from our belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Many have been scientifically tested and verified. If one is being intellectually honest, it has to give you pause.

Good suggestion. I was also going to suggest, if you might be so bold AnAtheist, to find a Catholic Church in your area where there is perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. You might begin by saying, honestly, as gomer tree suggested, a simple prayer. “God, if You are there, help me to believe.”

For me, personally, my time in the presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is my most precious, peaceful, and enlightening time. There are times when I really, truly, do not want to leave His presence to go back out into the world. So, for me, eternity will be exactly that – being in His Presence forever, uninterrupted (by the grace of God), and I can think of nothing lovelier!

 

[AnAtheist]

jiml8966:

A question for atheists:

If they dont believe in God and dont believe in an afterlife, why dont they kill themselves? (Just a philosophical question, not being facietous)

That’s easy to answer. This is the only life we have, so I intend to enjoy it as long as possible.

In fact it makes much more sense to commit suicide, when you believe in an afterlife, since you assume you actually get somewhere after your death. That is, why christianity made suicide a severe sin, to keep its followers from commiting suicide all the time in order to get into heaven faster. Or, take some other religion for example, muslim suicide bombers think they are zapped into their paradise at once, when they die early that way.

 

[epiphania]

AnAtheist:

Yup, done that. Gets boring after a billion billion years, which is still only a fraction of eternity.

Hi,
I think you would be really benefitted by reading Peter Kreefts book : Heaven, hearts deepest longing. And if you decide to pick it up, also try “Christianity for modern pagans” by the same person. This is one book Ive been reading and its really good, he explains Christianity from a philosophers point of view and uses Pascals apologetics (Pascals pensee’s) to do so.Try it out…

Blessings,

 

[AnAtheist]

epiphania:

…]he explains Christianity from a philosophers point of view and uses Pascals apologetics (Pascals pensee’s) to do so.Try it out…

Is that Pascal’s wager again? :yawn:
Or did Pascal actually had some arguments, that are not that easily refuted? Anyway, I might take a look at it.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

AnAtheist:

As an atheist I am often asked, what is the meaning of life, if there is no god, no afterlife, life ends with death, … That life may have no other meaning or purpose than simply to live, is obviously not a good answer for a theist.

So I like to ask you, if there is a god and an afterlife, **what is the meaning and/or purpose of that afterlife **(other than just going to heaven or hell)? Do you have an opinion about that, or do you not care and intend to wait until after death in order to find out? Is there an official RCC opinion?

As an atheist you don’t have the right tools to understand the answers given to your queston about afterlife.

Since God has not created you, the way you see it, you are at the moment unable to understad about God; his will and plans. And so you will be until you repent. (Unfortunatly the case is that atheistes never will be able to understand before they are ready to give up their athesim).

To once be able to understand the answeres given by christians, you must start praying to God about help to understand that God is your creator and that he has given you a free will to se YES or NO to him.

Then to your question: **So I like to ask you, if there is a god and an afterlife, **what is the meaning and/or purpose of that afterlife ****(other than just going to heaven or hell)?

God created us in the first place to be with him forever. Adam and Eve didn’t resist the atack of the devel and spoiled Gods plan at the moment. God made new plans about how to save us, and he did so through Jesus Christ (but we are free to say no to Christ and the everlasting life).

Death wasn’t meant to exixst in the beginning. Death was the concequences of The sin of Adam and Eve.

The meaning with the life after death, is exactly that, to have overcome death and to be with God and his christian family for ever. The meaning is to be what we were created for, to enjoy life forever!

Hope you soon start your prayers; God will not force his understanding on you!

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Is that Pascal’s wager again? :yawn:
Or did Pascal actually had some arguments, that are not that easily refuted? Anyway, I might take a look at it.

I haven’t read the book, but I don’t think anyone could write a tome based entirely on that argument. Even as a believer, I’ve always considered the “divine wager” idea to be a cop out, especially with all the other good arguments out there.

 

[Mijoy2]

AnAtheist:

Yup, done that. Gets boring after a billion billion years, which is still only a fraction of eternity.

Technically speaking there is no “fraction of eternity”.

I do not profess to “know” the answer AnAtheist, however, this is how I try to reconcile your question to myself.

Time is a wordly dimension. Trying to imagine an existance outside of time is not something we are very capable of doing. This concept, albiet way over my head, is something that is mentioned by some great minds such as Thomas Aquanis and great writers such as C.S. Lewis. I chose to believe there is something to this, because, time itself, when contimplated on is equally mysterious. We live in an infinate supply of moments. There really is no past nor a future. If we keep dividing our “present moment” in half we begin to approach zero. This could imply there is also no present.

So I think of eternity this way; an infinitly long moment of infinite happiness, peace and love. I’ll let the details get filled in later.

No bordom what-so-ever. Bordom is a worldly problem. We grow bored because we begin to learn the insignificance of the things that first excited us. A new car smell wears off very quickly.

 

[Townsend]

Dr. Colossus:

However, in Heaven we will possess no body, so we can’t assume that we will become bored in the same manner.

We will have perfected bodies after the general Resurrection. But I’m sure we will never be bored (or sad in any way) again!

 

[jiml8966]

That’s easy to answer. This is the only life we have, so I intend to enjoy it as long as possible.

But what about all the suffering that can happen, why would you endure that.

In fact it makes much more sense to commit suicide, when you believe in an afterlife, since you assume you actually get somewhere after your death.

No, life is a gift from God and we are to see how we can best serve Him and see whether we are worthy of Eternal happiness

That is, why christianity made suicide a severe sin, to keep its followers from commiting suicide all the time in order to get into heaven faster.

Christianity “made” suicide a sin because it is murder and a lack of respect for life. (of course certain states of mind or mental illness can lessen that sinfullness)

Or, take some other religion for example, muslim suicide bombers think they are zapped into their paradise at once, when they die early that way

I dont think God likes that either.

 

[AnAtheist]

jiml8966:

No, life is a gift from God and we are to see how we can best serve Him and see whether we are worthy of Eternal happiness

Christianity “made” suicide a sin because it is murder and a lack of respect for life. (of course certain states of mind or mental illness can lessen that sinfullness)

Atheists do not regard suicide as a sin, since “sin” is a meaningless term without a god. I understand the christian explanation of why suicide is a sin though, I merely stated my secular explanation for the fact that christians condemn suicide, as I obviously cannot use God in an argument.

Anyway, suicide as a way of stopping suffer is of course an option. But again, it stops the suffering, it is not an escape for an atheist, because we don’t believe to enter another place. Besides, any living thing has the survival instinct, that prevents us from commiting suicide.

So you see, there is a natural and some philosophical reasons for atheists NOT to commit suicide.

Believe me most atheists are sick of this really silly question, and I sincerely hope my explanations make some sense for you.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Well, here’s a hopefully less-silly question: If you can’t use God (i.e. an external objective morality) to defend why not to commit suicide, can you defend why not to commit murder? Why not to steal? Is it even possible for an atheist to have an ethical code they live by that makes any sense? Or do you consider it all subjective?

 

[gomer_tree]

Keep in mind that many probably have never had a protracted discussion with an atheist, regarding his atheism. The “silly” questions you receive are probably well-meaning, even if you consider them silly. I doubt you have heard the questions any more than we hear the many of the same kinds of questions from atheists.

Nobody is going to prove anything here, if that’s what you’re looking for. Neither can you prove the opposite. Atheism is a “faith” just as Christianity is. And while Pascal’s wager may be a yawner, the point is obvious. You seem to understand our faith enough to realize that if you are wrong, there are implications in rejecting God. If that is true, then you have faith in yourself for having the clarity of mind to make that enlightened decision that none of us can see, or are too afraid to make.

But if we’re talking logic, it would seem to me that any atheist should be asking every day for God - if He exists - to help them see that. Instead, most atheists have no interest in pursuing the possibility once they have convinced themselves of the “truth.” The problem is, it isn’t logical. While an atheist, you can live as an atheist. You may very well have an internal moral compass that you live by at your own choosing. You will not attribute it to God, of course. It’s just common sense. However, logic dictates that the mere possibility that you could be wrong should at least lead you to look into all possibilities that God exists.

If you refuse to look into, say, Eucharistic Miracles, or if you refuse to sincerely say a prayer to this unknown and possibly non-existent God to help you if you are wrong, and so on, then it means that you have not done all you can do. Which means that at some point, you have decided you do not wish to believe. Most often, it appears that the wish to not believe is weighed down because of the implication of belief: gosh, then you’d go to church and have to do this, and stop doing that, etc.

Only you and God knows the truth about your motivations. On the upside, you are here talking about it, and that’s a good thing.

In the end, the truth is the truth. My belief in God does not make Him exist. Your belief in God does not make Him not exist. Nobody should fall into the trap of thinking that - because they believe something, that makes it true. We will all find out someday what that truth is. (Actually, if you’re right, then we won’t, because we’ll just cease to exist).

 

[AnAtheist]

Dr. Colossus:

Well, here’s a hopefully less-silly question: If you can’t use God (i.e. an external objective morality) to defend why not to commit suicide, can you defend why not to commit murder? Why not to steal? Is it even possible for an atheist to have an ethical code they live by that makes any sense? Or do you consider it all subjective?

That is a better question indeed, please have a look at this thread I started: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=3333

 

[AnAtheist]

I mostly agree, just…
gomer tree:

If you refuse to look into, say, Eucharistic Miracles, or if you refuse to sincerely say a prayer to this unknown and possibly non-existent God to help you if you are wrong, and so on, then it means that you have not done all you can do. Which means that at some point, you have decided you do not wish to believe. Most often, it appears that the wish to not believe is weighed down because of the implication of belief: gosh, then you’d go to church and have to do this, and stop doing that, etc.

Well, we all do not ALL we could. I strongly doubt, that you have looked into the peculiarities of every religion there is on this planet. Lack of time, lack of interest, …?
As for miracles, I hold the same attitude as the patent office. It is allowed (at least here in Germany) to refuse inventions without investigation if they obviously contradict natural laws, like perpetua mobila.

 

[gomer_tree]

AnAtheist:

I mostly agree, just…
Well, we all do not ALL we could. I strongly doubt, that you have looked into the peculiarities of every religion there is on this planet. Lack of time, lack of interest, …?

Indeed, there is only so much we all can do. However, I do continue to read - not just on Catholicism, but on other things as well. Most importantly, I pray every day, along with my family, that the Holy Spirit guides us in all ways, for understanding, for our vocations, and for renewal.

This certainly is not a hardship. If I am praying and there is no God, then I expect that there is no particular value to that prayer. Since I have prayed it, though, life seems a whole lot clearer. All I’m saying is that it seems logical that an unbeliever who wants to base a decision on reason and logic should see the logical inconsistency in refusing an alternative avenue if a faulty belief system could otherwise lead to eternal damnation. Very few of us can read and study everything. In fact, one reason why the Catholic Church makes not judgment of the salvation of any individuals is because she knows that if a person truly seeks God, God will judge that person accordingly even if the person failed to ever figure out the fullness of knowable truth. This is not a cop-out for those who should do or could do more, and fall short.

As for miracles, I hold the same attitude as the patent office. It is allowed (at least here in Germany) to refuse inventions without investigation if they obviously contradict natural laws, like perpetua mobila.

A simple and elegant rule to be sure. Unfortunately, it changes nothing about their existence. It is a circular argument. You wish proof of God. If there is a natural explanation, then you will attribute the result to natural law. If there is no natural explanation, you refuse to investigate it and refuse to attribute it to God.

Meanwhile, the consecrated host at Lanciano, Italy, has existed in the state of an actual human heart for centuries, has been scientifically verified to be human heart tissue, and it has not degraded.

Perpetual motion machines have been disproven through scientific methods. This has not.

 

[AnAtheist]

gomer tree:

A simple and elegant rule to be sure. Unfortunately, it changes nothing about their existence. It is a circular argument. You wish proof of God. If there is a natural explanation, then you will attribute the result to natural law. If there is no natural explanation, you refuse to investigate it and refuse to attribute it to God.

Hm, yeah, scientific proof of God would greatly boost my belief. I grant you that, it is somewhat circular.
gomer tree:

Meanwhile, the consecrated host at Lanciano, Italy, has existed in the state of an actual human heart for centuries, has been scientifically verified to be human heart tissue, and it has not degraded.

I’ll try to find some resources on that and examine that evidence. You will understand that I am sceptical, just consider this:
If someone approached you with “evidence” for a Hindu miracle, would you regard it as a hint that Vishnu exists or would you assume
a) a fraud used for propaganda
b) a natural phenomenon
c) a hint that your religion is true?

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Question to AnAtheist

In my last post to you (post 26) my answer to you were:
Gratias Grace:

God created us in the first place to be with him forever.
…
Death wasn’t meant to exixst in the beginning. Death was the concequences of The sin of Adam and Eve.
…
The meaning with the life after death, is exactly that, to have overcome death and to be with God and his christian family for ever. The meaning is to be what we were created for, to enjoy life forever!

I am a bit qurious: Do you want to live forever or do you not?

G.G.