The Meaning of Bodily Resurrection

[distracted]

Hello distracted! Good to meet you.

What an exceedingly random and vague comment! I don’t know if I would or wouldn’t based on the conditions given. Not…enough…data!

But, hey, lets not get distracted from the original intent of this thread. Hehe.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

my comment is related because, for one, i didn’t know if the Mormons even believed in resurrection… and i am sure they don’t believe in it the same way Catholics and other Christians do…

it is also related because one must study the history of the Church to get a clear view of what the resurrection was all about… just as one should study history to get a clearer view on anything…

You can’t know someone very well, for instance… if you do not know the person’s family and background and history…

 

[Ben_Masada]

Greetings Ben Masada! I’m glad to meet you. I hope you are well today!

Interesting point that you bring up. As a Mormon, I believe in the literal, bodily, and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ and that all of mankind will eventually be literally and physically resurrected with immortal, physical bodies.

You promote a few premises to support your conclusion. Just because I’m interested to understand your perspective on this, if you don’t mind, can you explain to me why I should accept your premises?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

**Shalom Finrock, according to your introduction, you have clearly defined the difference between a Mormon and a Jew. In that case, let’s start with Luke. He says in Acts 1:3 that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples with convincing proofs that he was alive, Luke said, “after his sufferings or passion” and not after death or resurrection. This by itself gives us reason to believe that Jesus survived the cross.

But the main issue is your belief in literal resurrection to live with immortal bodies. Did you know that among the convincing proofs that Jesus was alive included to eat and drink with the disciples? Luke says that this went through for 40 days. But I am sure you don’t have to be a Doctor to know that with the natural process of eating and driking, comes the need to defecate. If Jesus was doing this after resurrection, I don’t think resurrection is worthy if we are to continue living just as we used to before death. And to live eternally like this? Thank you, but no thanks.

Besides, resurrection is against the Scriptures. Since the Scriptures cannot be contradicted, there is no bodily resurrection. You can read the proofs for my premises in Job 9:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I have left the whole book of Ecclesiastes out because almost the whole book is against a return of the dead.**

 

[distracted]

Sorry Steve, but the subject of resurrection itself is a contradiction to the Scriptures. Then, there was not a single eyewitness of such a thing. Then, read Luke 24:11. When the women brought the news of resurrection the disciples considered their report nonsense and an idle tale. How come? Didn’t Jesus ever tell them about it? No, he didn’t. Then, Jesus’ disciples were headquartered for about 30 years in Jerusalem when Paul showed up with that message and was nearly killed for preaching apostasy. How about Jesus’ disciples in Jerusalem coexisting peacefully with the local Jews? Something is wrong here. Why don’t you use your NT to prove it to me if you are so sure? I am all ears.

Jesus said “destroy this temple” (His body) and “I will raise it up again in 3 days”

If Jesus could raise others, He certainly could raise Himself… Jesus is God…

To me, that last statement settles it… Jesus said that He and the Father are one… that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father…

So if Jesus is God, why so hard to believe in His resurrection?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

**Shalom Finrock, according to your introduction, you have clearly defined the difference between a Mormon and a Jew. In that case, let’s start with Luke. He says in Acts 1:3 that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples with convincing proofs that he was alive, Luke said, “after his sufferings or passion” and not after death or resurrection. This by itself gives us reason to believe that Jesus survived the cross.

But the main issue is your belief in literal resurrection to live with immortal bodies. Did you know that among the convincing proofs that Jesus was alive included to eat and drink with the disciples? Luke says that this went through for 40 days. But I am sure you don’t have to be a Doctor to know that with the natural process of eating and driking, comes the need to defecate. If Jesus was doing this after resurrection, I don’t think resurrection is worthy if we are to continue living just as we used to before death. And to live eternally like this? Thank you, but no thanks.

Besides, resurrection is against the Scriptures. Since the Scriptures cannot be contradicted, there is no bodily resurrection. You can read the proofs for my premises in Job 9:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I have left the whole book of Ecclesiastes out because almost the whole book is against a return of the dead.**

What does Job mean in 19:23? For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

To me - that smacks of resurrection!

 

[Ben_Masada]

What does Job mean in 19:23? For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

To me - that smacks of resurrection!

**No, it has nothing to do with resurrection. That’s a reference to Job’s hope of his restoration. According to the allegory, Job was suffering from a terrible skin disease, perhaps leper, and he was sure that he would not die out of it.

The expression, “that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth,” means that God’s providence would be granted to Job. That Job would not die of that. And the expression,
“skin woms destroy this body” means death.

Besides, as I have said above, the whole book of Job is a Jewish allegory about the place of Israel in the Council of God. The man Job never existed. The book is a Jewish novel.**

 

[CHRISTINE77]

**No, it has nothing to do with resurrection. That’s a reference to Job’s hope of his restoration. According to the allegory, Job was suffering from a terrible skin disease, perhaps leper, and he was sure that he would not die out of it.

The expression, “that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth,” means that God’s providence would be granted to Job. That Job would not die of that. And the expression,
“skin woms destroy this body” means death.

Besides, as I have said above, the whole book of Job is a Jewish allegory about the place of Israel in the Council of God. The man Job never existed. The book is a Jewish novel.**

I disagree. After worms destroy his body in the grave, he will see God face to face when he is resurrected in the latter day.

It may be an allegory about Israel to you but to me, the Book of Job is about the awesome power of God, the audacity of men who think they understand God’s ways, and the ultimate goodness of God.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Jesus said “destroy this temple” (His body) and “I will raise it up again in 3 days”

If Jesus could raise others, He certainly could raise Himself… Jesus is God…

To me, that last statement settles it… Jesus said that He and the Father are one… that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father…

So if Jesus is God, why so hard to believe in His resurrection?

That’s my purpose to post in this forum: To fix the image of Judaism which has been distorted every time you claim that Jesus was god as if there is room in Judaism for Greek Mythology.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I disagree. After worms destroy his body in the grave, he will see God face to face when he is resurrected in the latter day.

It may be an allegory about Israel to you but to me, the Book of Job is about the awesome power of God, the audacity of men who think they understand God’s ways, and the ultimate goodness of God.

**Christine, for heaven’s sake, in the case of Job the worms were destroying his body in life. Read the book again. The man would spend his life on the floor scratching his skin out of the worms. There is nothing in the text about resurrection. You are the one adding the word to the text.

And regarding what you say, “the awesome power of God,” what awesome power if the Devil succeeded to persuade him to do what he wanted? Now, can you see why the book could not have been non-fictional? **

 

[CHRISTINE77]

**Christine, for heaven’s sake, in the case of Job the worms were destroying his body in life. Read the book again. The man would spend his life on the floor scratching his skin out of the worms. There is nothing in the text about resurrection. You are the one adding the word to the text.

And regarding what you say, “the awesome power of God,” what awesome power if the Devil succeeded to persuade him to do what he wanted? Now, can you see why the book could not have been non-fictional? **

Of course the book is allegorical. Job didn’t have worms though. He had boils.

Out of curiousity, what is your allegorical take on the Book of Job and Israel?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Of course the book is allegorical. Job didn’t have worms though. He had boils.

Out of curiousity, what is your allegorical take on the Book of Job and Israel?

**Boils! Okay, boils… what difference does it make? The man used to sit on the floor, scratching his… skin which would be exposed to flies, that would lay worms on the wounds and… yes, they would become boils. There, now you have the boils. And before he died. By the way, he recovered to a station in life doubly worthy the one before. That’s one more reason for the whole thing to be just an allegory.

Regarding being the whole book just an allegory about the place of Israel in the Council of God, it’s based on the fact that Job represented Israel, the Jewish People, and his friends the other nations. In the Epilogue, after Job’s restoration, God expressed His anger to Job’s friends and would accept a sacrifice from them only through Job. “And let my servant Job pray for you.” Here is Israel in its role of Mediator betwee God and man. (Job 42:8.

This place of Israel in the Council of God is connected to God’s promise to Noah that He would never allow another worldly catastrophe to hit Mankind again. Israel, soon to arise,
would be the mediator or pledge to guarantee that promise. (Gen. 8:21) Jeremiah understood it so well, that he wrote down much later that as long as Israel was in existence, the Natural laws would be in place to opperate. Read Jeremiah 31:35-37. In other words, “If ever the natural laws give way, Israel will cease to be a nation before the Lord forever.” Being the opposite also true. If Israel ever cease to exist, the natural laws will go berserk and universal catastrophes will hit the planet Earth.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Jesus said “destroy this temple” (His body) and “I will raise it up again in 3 days”

If Jesus could raise others, He certainly could raise Himself… Jesus is God…

To me, that last statement settles it… Jesus said that He and the Father are one… that if you have seen Him you have seen the Father…

So if Jesus is God, why so hard to believe in His resurrection?

That’s exactly where the problem is: Jesus was not God.
Jesus was a Jew, in whose Faith there is no place for Greek Mythology.

 

[JeanneH]

That’s exactly where the problem is: Jesus was not God.
Jesus was a Jew, in whose Faith there is no place for Greek Mythology.

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word: The Word was with God and the Word was God.
2: HE was with God in the beginning.

I guess this is in the 80% of the NT that you don’t believe. You either believe in the entire NT of you believe none of it. You can’t just believe a portion.

God Bless
Jeanne

 

[Ben_Masada]

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word: The Word was with God and the Word was God.
2: HE was with God in the beginning.

I guess this is in the 80% of the NT that you don’t believe. You either believe in the entire NT of you believe none of it. You can’t just believe a portion.

God Bless
Jeanne

And you guessed it right. And about your ultimatum for me to either believe in the entire NT or in none of it at all, if I did, I would not be Jewish. That’s what makes of us two different people. And if I did, we would not be having this conversation.

 

[JMJ_coder]

And you guessed it right. And about your ultimatum for me to either believe in the entire NT or in none of it at all, if I did, I would not be Jewish. That’s what makes of us two different people. And if I did, we would not be having this conversation.

And your not believing all of the Old Testament (or even all of the Torah) doesn’t make you any less Jewish.

 

[JeanneH]

And you guessed it right. And about your ultimatum for me to either believe in the entire NT or in none of it at all, if I did, I would not be Jewish. That’s what makes of us two different people. And if I did, we would not be having this conversation.

Ultimatum is a harsh word. I didn’t think I sounded that harsh. Sorry.

Actually, I think you don’t know what you believe. Mores the pity

Peace
Jeanne

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ultimatum is a harsh word. I didn’t think I sounded that harsh. Sorry.

Actually, I think you don’t know what you believe. Mores the pity

Peace
Jeanne

That’s because you don’t know what Jesus used to believe.

 

[Ben_Masada]

And your not believing all of the Old Testament (or even all of the Torah) doesn’t make you any less Jewish.

**It’s not that I don’t believe the Jewish Scriptures. I do. But enlightenment has reached my quarters and freed me from being too literalistic. **

 

[JeanneH]

That’s because you don’t know what Jesus used to believe.

Jesus believed every word of the , what I would call the OT. He was a Jew from birth to death. He also knew that Isaiah 53 was referring to him. He also knew that he came/was sent to save our souls.

Jeanne

 

[geometer]

The Meaning of Bodily Resurrection

Bodily resurrection is the return to life of someone who has died. It’s impossible for being against two kinds of laws: The first is natural laws. The second is Biblical laws.

God has established the natural laws, which have become the tools by which He governs the Universe. Any going against such laws, even by God Himself, would mean only weakness, for His having been unable to maintain order in the Universe.

Regarding Biblical laws, resurrection would only cause contradictions where Divine inspiration is claimed. Since God is not a God of confusion, resurrection must go and the Scriptures must be upheld.

The Scriptures are only too clear about dying and the impossibility to return. Some of the Biblical passages are: Job 7:9,10; 10:21; 14:12; II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 88:6; 146:4; Proverbs 2:19; Ezekiel 26:20. I am leaving Ecclesiastes out for being almost the whole book about the same issue: Against afterlife.

But then, what happened to Jesus that millions today believe he resurrected? He didn’t. What happened to him was resuscitation. Resurrection was made up much later by Paul, about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. If we read what he said to Timothy in his second Epistle 2:8, he connected the resurrection of Jesus to his own gospel. It means that there was another gospel at the time, which would not mention such a claim. It could only be the gospel of Jesus’ disciples, who at the first indication of resurrection by the women, had considered their report as an ildle tale and nonsense. (Luke 24:11)

Then, we have Luke in Acts 1:1-3, saying that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples, with many convincing evidences that he was alive in flesh and bone, Luke said, “after his passion or suffering,” not after death or resurrection. Therefore, it does not mean at all that Jesus had died and resurrected. True that Luke contradicts himself later, but that’s normal of the NT.

Ben

No, I don’t think so…

 

[JMJ_coder]

**It’s not that I don’t believe the Jewish Scriptures. I do. But enlightenment has reached my quarters and freed me from being too literalistic. **

So everywhere in the Torah or the Prophets when there is mention of some supernatural event, what is that – Greek mythology entering into Jewish Scriptures?