The Meaning of Life

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300WhiteKnights

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Hey everyone, this is my first thread, I have actually never really used forums before, but I had some questions that I really wanted to be answered so I registered to this website.

Anyway, I was debating with an atheist earlier today. My argument was that if God does not exist, then there is no meaning or purpose to life. If God does not exist, then the only purpose of life would be to simply exist, which in itself has no real meaning. He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response. I agree that indeed we must set our own goals in life, but is that really the meaning of life?

Thank you for your responses.
 
Hey everyone, this is my first thread, I have actually never really used forums before, but I had some questions that I really wanted to be answered so I registered to this website.

Anyway, I was debating with an atheist earlier today. My argument was that if God does not exist, then there is no meaning or purpose to life. If God does not exist, then the only purpose of life would be to simply exist, which in itself has no real meaning. He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response. I agree that indeed we must set our own goals in life, but is that really the meaning of life?

Thank you for your responses.
Greetings White!

I don’t particularly like trying to show that God exists, by show that, if he doesn’t, there is no meaning to life. It doesn’t seem to aim at proving a truth, but rather it tries to show, more or less, “you better believe, or else you will never be happy.” I don’t think the mind is truly satisfied with such arguments. After all, one could still accept the fact that, if God doesn’t exist, then life has no meaning, and still not be convinced one way or another about whether or not he really does exist. In other words, regardless of the truth of the point “if God doesn’t exist, life has no meaning,” there is still the great question of “does God exist” to address.

But, despite all that, there are a couple of points you can make against the atheist you are arguing against. If he truly believes there is no meaning to life, outside of what you make, then you have just as much right to say “God exists” as he does to say “murder is wrong.” Both people are, as it were, “making up” their own values, and his are not better than yours. Both are equally “true.” As a matter of fact, “truth” itself is arbitrary, since everyone’s truth is made up by himself. Again, according to his philosophy, his “truth” or worldview is no more “right” than yours.

Also, you could say that he hasn’t shown that God doesn’t exist, so at best, God “may” exist, even if no one in the world could ever find out. That doesn’t change whether or not God exists. At best, unless he gives solid proofs against God’s existence, he (or she) ought to be an agnostic.

Again, this wouldn’t be used to “prove” God exists so much, as it would be to convince him that he isn’t in a better position than you are, or to show him how contradictory his own notions are in his own life.
 
The Purpose of Man’s Existence
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Lesson 1 from the *Baltimore Cathechism*
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**1. Who made us?**

God made us.
*In the beginning, God created heaven and earth. (Genesis 1:1)*
**2. Who is God?**

God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.
*In him we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28)*
**3. Why did God make us?**

God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
*Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the  heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. (I  Corinthians 2:9)*
**4. What must we do to gain the happiness of heaven?**

To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world.
*Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth; where the rust and  moth consume and where thieves break through and steal. But lay up to  yourselves treasures in heaven; where neither the rust nor moth doth  consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. (Matthew  6:19-20)*
**5. From whom do we learn to know, love, and serve God?**

We learn to know, love, and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church.
*I have come a light into the world that whoever believes in Me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)*
 
He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response. I agree that indeed we must set our own goals in life, but is that really the meaning of life?

Thank you for your responses.
What is the ultimate value of one’s personal goals and philosophy of life if you are a finite being? When you die they die with you, and ultimately they are of no value. So if they have no transcendant value when you are dead, what real value did they have when you were alive? None. His response is a contradiction, in my opinion, because you can’t give yourself meaning; it can only be given to you from the outside.
 
Hey everyone, this is my first thread, I have actually never really used forums before, but I had some questions that I really wanted to be answered so I registered to this website.

Anyway, I was debating with an atheist earlier today. My argument was that if God does not exist, then there is no meaning or purpose to life. If God does not exist, then the only purpose of life would be to simply exist, which in itself has no real meaning. He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response. I agree that indeed we must set our own goals in life, but is that really the meaning of life?

Thank you for your responses.
What does the “meaning of life” mean?
 
He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response.
A very confounding response indeed. He says there is no meaning, but we have to “discover” our own meaning? How can one discover a meaning that doesn’t exist?

Possibly he means we have to “create” our own meaning in life, which atheists sometimes say. But this seems odd, the universe doesn’t acquire a meaning because I give it one. What if I give it one meaning and you give it another, who is right? But if neither of us is right, then the universe has no meaning. We are just pretending the universe has meaning, and this is just an exercise in self-delusion.

I like William Lane Craig’s article “The absurdity of life without God.” It deals with this stuff.
 
What if I give it one meaning and you give it another, who is right?
There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the word “meaning” going on here.

The word “meaning” refers to the significance that an individual imposes upon things, including the circumstances of his or her own life. “Meaning” does not have to refer to some grand, objective goal that applies to everyone.

There’s no contradiction in saying that the meaning of my life is to write books and enjoy myself doing that, while the meaning of your life is to spend every waking hour posting on the CAF forums and enjoy yourself doing that.

No one’s “right” in that situation because “right” doesn’t apply when we’re talking about personal meanings that we impose on things.
 
I agree with buffalo:

God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.

All other worldly goals are insignificant next to getting in to Heaven.
 
What is the ultimate value of one’s personal goals and philosophy of life if you are a finite being? When you die they die with you, and ultimately they are of no value. So if they have no transcendant value when you are dead, what real value did they have when you were alive? None. His response is a contradiction, in my opinion, because you can’t give yourself meaning; it can only be given to you from the outside.
If we take what you say as being true, that is, that meaning “can only be given to you from the outside”, then that implies that some type of objective standard can be applied to judge the way you have lived your life. If you believe in a higher being, from whom this objective standard arises, then “meaning” can be ascribed to the way you live your life while you are still living it. You have ‘standards" that your life can be measured against, like signposts, as you travel along living your life. you can measure how and by how much, you are being ‘good’, or ‘bad’. Those signposts are a form of ‘morality’ which allow you to guage how you are living your life. That ;morality’ will also allow you to guage whether or not you are living your life to its full potetial. After all, you, as a human being, are part of a social milieu and your success or otherwise will be dependent upon how you act, behave and are recieved in that social milieu. In other words, the ‘mening’ of your life will come from your part, your role, within the context of a wider humanity. Now, for the sake of argument, let’s take God out of the equation. Can you still live a good life, reaching your full potential, giving meaning to your life, without recourse to a God? Is it not possible that there is an objective standard that can be applied to how one lives their life that comes from your fellow man? I say “yes”. The next question, of course, is what is this objective standard and where did it come from.
 
There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the word “meaning” going on here.

The word “meaning” refers to the significance that an individual imposes upon things, including the circumstances of his or her own life. “Meaning” does not have to refer to some grand, objective goal that applies to everyone.

There’s no contradiction in saying that the meaning of my life is to write books and enjoy myself doing that, while the meaning of your life is to spend every waking hour posting on the CAF forums and enjoy yourself doing that.

No one’s “right” in that situation because “right” doesn’t apply when we’re talking about personal meanings that we impose on things.
I agree there is a misunderstanding about the word meaning. For instance, when we ask if life has any meaning, we mean, does life have any ultimate or objective meaning. Atheists typically try to reply as you did, that of course we can “create” meaning. But this only shows a relative meaning to these events, not an ultimate meaning.

This is why the atheist is inconsistent when he affirms that life is meaningless (as it obviously is without God), and then tries to claim he can create meaning. He is committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, using meaning in the first part of refer to ultimate meaning, and then in the second to refer to relative meaning.

You are totally right, if we are only talking about personal, subjective meanings, then no one can be right. But this is not what Christians mean when they say that the universe has no meaning without God. The typical Christian position is that if God does not exist, then life is objectively meaningless and without ultimate meaning, but humans cannot live happily with this conclusion and so the non-theist has to try to “create” meaning, by pretending the universe has meaning. In which case, we are just fooling ourselves.
 
Atheists typically try to reply as you did, that of course we can “create” meaning. But this only shows a relative meaning to these events, not an ultimate meaning.
That’s right. We definitely know that people can give relative meaning to things. But an “objective” meaning? It’s my contention that no one has demonstrated that such a thing exists – in fact, I assert that it is a fundamental misunderstanding of language to think that “meaning” can ever be “objective.”
This is why the atheist is inconsistent when he affirms that life is meaningless (as it obviously is without God), and then tries to claim he can create meaning. He is committing the logical fallacy of equivocation, using meaning in the first part of refer to ultimate meaning, and then in the second to refer to relative meaning.
There’s no equivocation or inconsistency as long as we’re clear about terms. Indeed, most atheists would be happy to say that life is “meaingless,” if by “meaning” you mean some objective, supernatural meaning imposed on the world from without; but within this meaningless world, there is, in fact, individual meaning that can be made.

There’s nothing at all inconsistent about that position.
The typical Christian position is that if God does not exist, then life is objectively meaningless and without ultimate meaning, but humans cannot live happily with this conclusion and so the non-theist has to try to “create” meaning, by pretending the universe has meaning. In which case, we are just fooling ourselves.
There are a few things wrong with your thoughts here.

In the first case, this “Christian position” that you’re presenting here makes the fundamental mistake of assuming that anyone who creates meaning does so because “they cannot live happily with the conclusion that life [has no objective meaning].” This is just false. People naturally create meaning as they live and experience – there’s nothing at all that suggests that the average person’s sense of meaning in his or her life is at all motivated by dissatisfaction.

What this position is really saying is this: “If I didn’t have my fantasy of ‘objective meaning,’ I would be dissatisfied, so I’ll just blindly assume that everyone else feels the same exact way, without any evidence whatsoever.”

In the second place, you attempt to equate the giving of personal meaning to things “pretending that life has meaning,” but here it is you who are equivocating. Nobody – nobody who spends a few seconds thinking about it, of course – when giving personal meaning to things, is pretending that things have objective meaning.

When I give meaning to things that I value, those things really do acquire personal meaning. Obviously, this is different than asserting that they have objective meaning, but the fact that it’s not objective meaning doesn’t in any way render my act “pretend.”
 
My argument was that if God does not exist, then there is no meaning or purpose to life. If God does not exist, then the only purpose of life would be to simply exist, which in itself has no real meaning.
You are right! In a purposeless universe the only meaning life has is that which we impose on it.
He replied that we have to set our own goals and discover our own meaning to life and that we do not need a purpose in order to exist. This is somewhat of a confounding response. I agree that indeed we must set our own goals in life, but is that really the meaning of life?
Of course we can set our own goals but they are arbitrary. If there is no reason why we exist there is no reason why we should do anything. In an amoral universe morality is a human convention - which can be, and often is, ignored.

Even to say that we must set our own goals implies that we have the power to do so. Yet if we are simply biological machines we have no choice in the matter. All our thoughts and actions are caused by physical events and we cannot even choose what to think! According to the materialist “we” don’t even exist because the mind or self is an illusion…
 
A very confounding response indeed. He says there is no meaning, but we have to “discover” our own meaning? How can one discover a meaning that doesn’t exist?

Possibly he means we have to “create” our own meaning in life, which atheists sometimes say. But this seems odd, the universe doesn’t acquire a meaning because I give it one. What if I give it one meaning and you give it another, who is right? But if neither of us is right, then the universe has no meaning. We are just pretending the universe has meaning, and this is just an exercise in self-delusion.

I like William Lane Craig’s article “The absurdity of life without God.” It deals with this stuff.
Good Show. 👍
 
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tonrey:
Of course we can set our own goals but they are arbitrary.
Arbitrary: 2.Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference

I agree. When we set our own goals, they are based on our personal preferences. 🙂
If there is no reason why we exist there is no reason why we should do anything.
I disagree. In the absence of an objective reason for my existance, I’m about to eat some soup because it tastes good, and I had sex this weekend because it felt good. And I found this forum because I felt a bit philosophical and it appeared in a Google search.
In an amoral universe morality is a human convention - which can be, and often is, ignored.
Amoral, yes, that’s the proper word.
Even to say that we must set our own goals implies that we have the power to do so. Yet if we are simply biological machines we have no choice in the matter.
Machines make many, many choices. Often they’re based on what their programmer says to do, but sometimes they’re unanticipated or based on learned experience. Obviously, our technology is far from Bladerunner-esque human emulating machines that dream of electric sheep, or even machines that match us in general terms, although the day has arrived that AI can surpass us in specific domains once thought to be exclusively human like chess.

Are we biological machines? How will we define sentience as computer AI advances? If our race endures, these will be interesting questions for future generations.
All our thoughts and actions are caused by physical events and we cannot even choose what to think! According to the materialist “we” don’t even exist because the mind or self is an illusion…
That’s a completely different -ism. 😉
 
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timotheos:
So if they have no transcendant value when you are dead, what real value did they have when you were alive? None.
That doesn’t follow. If I win an important case and as a result earn a promotion that may have no ultimate value to Odin, Allah, Gaia, Isis, Christ, or whatever God happens to have sway in this universe if any, but it has value to me because I take pride in my work and the increase in income will make my life more enjoyable for years to come. You may have noticed, people both religious and not, tend to value such things.
His response is a contradiction, in my opinion, because you can’t give yourself meaning; it can only be given to you from the outside.
I impose my own meaning on events all the time. When I sold my first… widget… for $100, that $100 meant so much more to me than it did to my customer. 🙂
 
It seems to me, in the general sense, that life in general, lives for the satisfaction. If you watch nature shows or observe the wild life around you they have no philosophical need to continue another day. They seem to live for the satisfaction in living. Hence the struggle in the wild were one species need for satisfaction in living crosses another’s need for satisfaction in living. Even a pet dog responds to it’s owner for the satisfaction.

In human endeavors isn’t it the same? Hence the need for government, law and the like to maintain a peaceful coexistence with one’s neighbor. And provide equity when all else fails. When the living seek satisfation in living.

Even when one looks at what God has created, He saw that it was good. Hence to His satisfaction. And He is the Giver of Life.
 
I disagree. In the absence of an objective reason for my existance, I’m about to eat some soup because it tastes good, and I had sex this weekend because it felt good. And I found this forum because I felt a bit philosophical and it appeared in a Google search.
You haven’t given reasons, just responses to instincts and impulses…
**

In an amoral universe morality is a human convention - which can be, and often is, ignored.
**

Amoral, yes, that’s the proper word.

"proper" does not exist in an amoral universe!

**
Even to say that we must set our own goals implies that we have the power to do so. Yet if we are simply biological machines we have no choice in the matter.
**

Machines make many, many choices. Often they’re based on what their programmer says to do, but sometimes they’re unanticipated or based on learned experience. Obviously, our technology is far from Bladerunner-esque human emulating machines that dream of electric sheep, or even machines that match us in general terms, although the day has arrived that AI can surpass us in specific domains once thought to be exclusively human like chess.

Machine make selections, not choices. To surpass us in programmes does not make them programmers!


**
Are we biological machines? How will we define sentience as computer AI advances? If our race endures, these will be interesting questions for future generations.
According to you we must be machines without a will of our own.**

**
**

All our thoughts and actions are caused by physical events and we cannot even choose what to think! According to the materialist “we” don’t even exist because the mind or self is an illusion…
**

**That’s a completely different -ism. **

**Regardless of -isms where do you obtain the mind in your scheme of things?
 
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