the meaning of Mediatrix

[Monica4316]

I hear a lot of non Catholics say “we only have one Mediator between God and man and that is Christ” and so try to refute the Catholic idea of Mary being Mediatrix of grace.

(this idea is not a dogma, but it is widely accepted, and might become dogma someday)

IMHO this is a misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching and if I may, I hope to explain it a little bit here to those that are curious

We agree completely that Christ is the one Mediator between God the Father and man for our salvation.

Let’s try to look at what that verse is actually saying. It is saying that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through Jesus. Not through anyone else.

Well when we call Mary “Mediatrix”, we DON’T mean that she is another path to God, separate from Christ. It’s not like we can go to the Father through Jesus, OR through Mary. They are together in Heaven and the Blessed Mother only ever does His will.

So what does the teaching actually say?

From what I’ve read, - and if I’m wrong in anything please correct me - is that Mary’s mediation is not separate from that of Christ’s, but is part of *His *mediation. She participates in it. What does this mean? Well Mary participated in Christ’s one work of redemption by consenting to the Incarnation, and later being present at the Cross. God the Father gave us Jesus through Mary. Also, she was always “full of grace”. So being full of grace, when she came to Heaven, one of her rewards was to be given God’s grace to distribute to all God’s people. This is accomplished through the Holy Spirit, and Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

So the Church calls her “Mediatrix of all grace”.

This does NOT mean that she is another path to the Father, apart from Christ. Everything she does is IN Christ.
Neither does it mean that she mediates our salvation in the way that Christ does.

Rather, she brings us to Jesus, and Jesus brings us to the Father

I know this all sounds really complex.

But I was hoping that we could perhaps discuss this, and try to learn more about the idea.

Here’s a pretty good article about it:
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_mediatrix_co-redemptrix.htm

Here’s a bit from wikipedia:
“The concept of Mediatrix has two meanings: Mary gave birth to the redeemer, who is the fountain of all grace. Therefore she participated in the [one, Christ’s] mediating of grace. A second opinion states that Mary, assumed into heaven, participates in the mediating of divine graces of her Son. Popes such as Leo XIII through Pius XII have traditionally supported both interpretations.”

the whole article is useful:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediatrix

so you can see that in Catholic theology also, Christ is the one Mediator but Mary participates in His one mediation, because she is His Mother and is above all other creatures. She has a very special role in Heaven.

God bless

 

[Hesychios]

Looks like another example of ‘Development of Doctrine’ to me.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Perhaps, if it is repeated 1,000,000,000 times more, it will become fact. Until that time, the word one means less than 2 and more than zero.

One, it is said, is the loneliest number that you ever seen.

“we only have one Mediator between God and man and that is *the man *Christ”

 

[gt8952b]

“Development of Doctorine” is an odd expression to me. Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

In my (albeit limited) understanding, when beliefs become Dogma in the Catholic Church, there is longstanding evidence that supports the belief. The Church tries to defend the teachings of the Church fathers and tradition and only supports them as Dogma if there is Biblical evidence. The Church does not just introduce new ideas to somehow elevate itself, or embellish the basic tenets of Jesus’ teachings with decoration, or to impose more restrictions upon the faithful.

It took a long time for me to understand Mary’s role in the redemption, but the more I grow in faith, the more I’m drawn to Mary as someone God chose, and someone who cares deeply for her son and us.

I think it’s important to remember that the early Church saw Mary as an integral part of the redemptive act (mentioned in the linked article below). Here’s a quote from Irenaeus, (Against Heresies, V:19,1, A.D. 180) in addition to the ones provided in the article.

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”

But by all means if you don’t agree, please let us know your perspective.

God Bless

 

[True_Believer_1]

Perhaps, if it is repeated 1,000,000,000 times more, it will become fact. Until that time, the word one means less than 2 and more than zero.

One, it is said, is the loneliest number that you ever seen.

“we only have one Mediator between God and man and that is *the man *Christ”

I agree 100% -The only Path to the Father is Through the Son, Chirst himself told us this. But do not be too quick to be a Mary basher. Mary, Mother of Jesus, was and is, as close to our dear Lord and Savior as any human being. So by following the Communion of Saints and asking Mary, as well as all other Saints, to please pray for us, we are not trying in anyway to go around Christ to get to the Father. The whole idea of that is absolutely stupid.

And, by the way, do not try to be so high and mighty. By braking away from the one true Catholic Church, what all other Christians churches are saying is that God made a mistake and that man knows better then God. Nice try, but I’ll stay with the Church that Christ founded Thank you very much.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!

 

[JonNC]

so you can see that in Catholic theology also, Christ is the one Mediator but Mary participates in His one mediation, because she is His Mother and **is above all other creatures. **She has a very special role in Heaven.

God bless

It is not my intent to argue, but to simply respond. THe phrase I bolded is probably the most distressing, at least for me. Why is she above all other creatures? In what sense is she above all other creatures? If she is greater than you or me, can you see how it is possible that she could be viewed by some, however incorrectly, as nearly god-like herself?

Next, is her participation in helping spread His grace any different than yours or mine, your priest or my pastor? IOW, am I, in the same sense as you explain above, a mediator of His Grace, in that I participate in His making His grace available to others?
And if so, why would she need a special designation?

Jon

 

[Monica4316]

Looks like another example of ‘Development of Doctrine’ to me.

no, that is not true.

the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that doctrine changes, or that the truth changes.

the Church contains the same original doctrine that was once given to the Apostles.

However, over time, we come to greater understanding of this doctrine and new ways to apply it to our lives.

When this happens, the Church formulates dogmas.

In other words - the Church takes ideas that were always there, and gives them new terminology (as dogmas), so that the teaching would be clear to the faithful

this happens especially when a teaching is opposed or questioned or when there are many heresies.

this same thing happened in the early Church. The doctrines of the Holy Trinity, and Christ’s divinity, weren’t always formulated… even though believed. In the councils, they were made ‘official’ cause there were opposing heresies going around.

If this happened in the early Church, after the Apostles, why would it not happen in other Councils, such as Trent?

God bless.

 

[gt8952b]

Maybe this should start a new thread, but two key pieces of evidence to me that Mary deserves reverence and perhaps the title of Mediatrix are: 1) Fatima and 2) the devotion of Padre Pio to Mary.

You see, besides the evidence that the Church fathers believed in Mary’s special role, which was centuries ago, and may be difficult to prove interpretation, or tie into our own time, there have been miracles and miracle workers that support this belief in recent history. (The CC very seriously avoids calling anything a miracle that it can’t absolutely prove is a miracle.)

These are very Catholic, no doubt, but I’ve discussed these with a few of my protestant friends and I’m still not sure what they or other protestants think of these things, or if they just dismiss them outright. I’d also like to hear what other Catholics think.

 

[Monica4316]

Perhaps, if it is repeated 1,000,000,000 times more, it will become fact. Until that time, the word one means less than 2 and more than zero.

One, it is said, is the loneliest number that you ever seen.

“we only have one Mediator between God and man and that is *the man *Christ”

I don’t think you really understood what I said

I said, there is one Mediator, and one Mediation, - in Christ.

But Mary is not “another separate mediator”

What Mediatrix means is NOT that.

it means that she shares in Christ’s ONE mediation. She is in Christ, who is the Mediator, and shares in His work, participates in it, because she is His Mother.

that is why I made this thread, cause so many people think that Mediatrix means thatt Mary is another mediator. It does not. It means she shares in her Son’s mediation, and her own mediation is NOT between the Father and us for our salvation (this is what Christ does) - but it’s to lead us to Christ. (so that He may lead us to the Father)

Protestantism is really “either/or”… Catholicism is “both/and”

we tend to see things differently for that reason.

“Development of Doctorine” is an odd expression to me. Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

In my (albeit limited) understanding, when beliefs become Dogma in the Catholic Church, there is longstanding evidence that supports the belief. The Church tries to defend the teachings of the Church fathers and tradition and only supports them as Dogma if there is Biblical evidence. The Church does not just introduce new ideas to somehow elevate itself, or embellish the basic tenets of Jesus’ teachings with decoration, or to impose more restrictions upon the faithful.

that is my understanding also. If you read any of the encyclicals where dogma was proclaimed, they ALWAYS back it up with ECFs and Scripture and Tradition

It took a long time for me to understand Mary’s role in the redemption, but the more I grow in faith, the more I’m drawn to Mary as someone God chose, and someone who cares deeply for her son and us.

me too… I think we really understand Mary through loving her as our Mother

I think it’s important to remember that the early Church saw Mary as an integral part of the redemptive act (mentioned in the linked article below). Here’s a quote from Irenaeus, (Against Heresies, V:19,1, A.D. 180) in addition to the ones provided in the article.

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”

But by all means if you don’t agree, please let us know your perspective.

God Bless

cool

It is not my intent to argue, but to simply respond. THe phrase I bolded is probably the most distressing, at least for me. Why is she above all other creatures? In what sense is she above all other creatures? If she is greater than you or me, can you see how it is possible that she could be viewed by some, however incorrectly, as nearly god-like herself?

she is not like God…

but neither is she like you or me…

if you read what the early Church said about Mary, - they put her above all other creatures too even above the archangels.

The reason is, she’s the only one who bore the Word in her womb. She is the only one “full of grace” - so filled with grace that there is literally nothing else in her. The Church teaches she was sinless, and that is for Christs’ sake, so that He would not be dishonoured being born of a sinner.

Mary is the Mother of God, not because she existed before God, but because she bore Christ, who is God.

This can’t be said about any other person who ever lived…

and so yes I do believe she is above all creatures

I think that is a very humbling thought, personally.

Next, is her participation in helping spread His grace any different than yours or mine, your priest or my pastor? IOW, am I, in the same sense as you explain above, a mediator of His Grace, in that I participate in His making His grace available to others?
And if so, why would she need a special designation?

Jon

I’m glad you see it too that we help spread God’s grace to others! that is true… we DO all share in Christ’s work of bringing all people to the Father. When we pray for others, when we share the Gospel, etc.

But Mary does do this in a greater way, because she directly participated in the Incarnation. Would you agree that without the Incarnation, there would be no redemption and no salvation for any of us?

well Mary consented to the Incarnation… through her free will.

another way that Mary shares God’s grace in a special way is that she is able to share it with all people, not just a few.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

Maybe this should start a new thread, but two key pieces of evidence to me that Mary deserves reverence and perhaps the title of Mediatrix are: 1) Fatima and 2) the devotion of Padre Pio to Mary.

You see, besides the evidence that the Church fathers believed in Mary’s special role, which was centuries ago, and may be difficult to prove interpretation, or tie into our own time, there have been miracles and miracle workers that support this belief in recent history. (The CC very seriously avoids calling anything a miracle that it can’t absolutely prove is a miracle.)

These are very Catholic, no doubt, but I’ve discussed these with a few of my protestant friends and I’m still not sure what they or other protestants think of these things, or if they just dismiss them outright. I’d also like to hear what other Catholics think.

I’d be interested in discussing this too

 

[Eleve]

If she is greater than you or me, can you see how it is possible that she could be viewed by some, however incorrectly, as nearly god-like herself?

Monica said everything else I was going to say, but I don’t think that this concern can overrule actual truth. Consider the Christological definitions of the early ecumenical councils. They dealt with extremely technical matters, and could be easily misunderstood. Monophysitists, for example, took the Council of Ephesus too far and ended up teaching that Jesus only had one nature. That the teaching can lead to misinterpretation does not change that Jesus was one person, and in the same way we cannot say that recognizing Mary as Mediatrix is wrong simply because it might be misunderstood.

 

[Jon_Hus]

…
Protestantism is really “either/or”… Catholicism is “both/and”

OK, I get it, like Scripture-Tradition/ Sola Scripture (the “both/and” of Roman Catholics)

All clear now.

 

[JonNC]

=Monica4316;5384446]
she is not like God…
but neither is she like you or me…
if you read what the early Church said about Mary, - they put her above all other creatures too even above the archangels.

Monica, you explain yourself quite well. It is a pleasure to discuss with you.
Do you have a source for this, one of the early councils, or a particular ECF?

Mary is the Mother of God, not because she existed before God, but because she bore Christ, who is God.

This can’t be said about any other person who ever lived…

and so yes I do believe she is above all creatures

I think that is a very humbling thought, personally.

Yes, I understand Theotokos, and we should all be grateful to her.

I’m glad you see it too that we help spread God’s grace to others! that is true… we DO all share in Christ’s work of bringing all people to the Father. When we pray for others, when we share the Gospel, etc.

But Mary does do this in a greater way, because she directly participated in the Incarnation. Would you agree that without the Incarnation, there would be no redemption and no salvation for any of us?

well Mary consented to the Incarnation… through her free will.

another way that Mary shares God’s grace in a special way is that she is able to share it with all people, not just a few.

I see your point of view. Thanks for explaining.

Jon

 

[pdholden]

Rather, she brings us to Jesus, and Jesus brings us to the Father

I’m not meaning to be rude or simplistic in my thinking, but you’re saying that we have/need a mediator for our mediator?

 

[gt8952b]

I’m not meaning to be rude or simplistic in my thinking, but you’re saying that we have/need a mediator for our mediator?

Hi pdholden,
Consider Thomas Aquinas:

In Summa Theologiae I. 19. 5. c., Thomas says that it pleases God to have one thing in place to serve as a title or reason for granting something further, even though that title does not move Him. It is His love of all goodness and good order that leads Him to act this way. Hence too, even though Calvary earned infinite forgiveness and graces, the Father wills to provide titles for giving out these, in the Mass. Even though He did not need even our Lady, yet He willed to employ her. Even though there is no need of any other saints, in objective or subjective redemption, yet He wills to add them–all to make everything, every title, as rich as possible.

(thanks to EWTN for the quote - ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm)

This is the common misunderstanding, that Mary is needed, or in some way she is equal to God. She is God’s gift to us.

I hope that helps.

 

[Hesychios]

…Also, she was always “full of grace”. So being full of grace, when she came to Heaven, one of her rewards was to be given God’s grace to distribute to all God’s people.

Where do you find this elucidated?

This is accomplished through the Holy Spirit, and Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

Have you ever seen a dogma laying this out as a religious fact?

So the Church calls her “Mediatrix of all grace”.

But what does that mean, exactly?

This does NOT mean that she is another path to the Father, apart from Christ. Everything she does is IN Christ.
Neither does it mean that she mediates our salvation in the way that Christ does.

Rather, she brings us to Jesus, and Jesus brings us to the Father

So then, if Saint Thomas or uncle Mel brought me to Christ, it really means Saint Mary brought me to Christ?

Here’s a bit from wikipedia:
"The concept of Mediatrix has two meanings:

[1] Mary gave birth to the redeemer, who is the fountain of all grace. Therefore she participated in the [one, Christ’s] mediating of grace.

I can see that all Christians, the angels and Communion of Saints likewise participating in some way. Not that this is a function somehow monopolized by a single creaturely soul.

**[2] **A second opinion states that Mary, assumed into heaven, participates in the mediating of divine graces of her Son. Popes such as Leo XIII through Pius XII have traditionally supported both interpretations."

This has never been properly explained. I think that it is a dangerous invention, possibly sacrilege.

…above all other creatures. She has a very special role in Heaven.

This kind of claim could be easily misunderstood. One must be careful when expounding upon such pious notions.

 

[centurionguard]

I hear a lot of non Catholics say “we only have one Mediator between God and man and that is Christ” and so try to refute the Catholic idea of Mary being Mediatrix of grace.

(this idea is not a dogma, but it is widely accepted, and might become dogma someday)

IMHO this is a misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching and if I may, I hope to explain it a little bit here to those that are curious

We agree completely that Christ is the one Mediator between God the Father and man for our salvation.

Let’s try to look at what that verse is actually saying. It is saying that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through Jesus. Not through anyone else.

Well when we call Mary “Mediatrix”, we DON’T mean that she is another path to God, separate from Christ. It’s not like we can go to the Father through Jesus, OR through Mary. They are together in Heaven and the Blessed Mother only ever does His will.

So what does the teaching actually say?

From what I’ve read, - and if I’m wrong in anything please correct me - is that Mary’s mediation is not separate from that of Christ’s, but is part of *His *mediation. She participates in it. What does this mean? Well Mary participated in Christ’s one work of redemption by consenting to the Incarnation, and later being present at the Cross. God the Father gave us Jesus through Mary. Also, she was always “full of grace”. So being full of grace, when she came to Heaven, one of her rewards was to be given God’s grace to distribute to all God’s people. This is accomplished through the Holy Spirit, and Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

So the Church calls her “Mediatrix of all grace”.

This does NOT mean that she is another path to the Father, apart from Christ. Everything she does is IN Christ.
Neither does it mean that she mediates our salvation in the way that Christ does.

Rather, she brings us to Jesus, and Jesus brings us to the Father

I know this all sounds really complex.

But I was hoping that we could perhaps discuss this, and try to learn more about the idea.

Here’s a pretty good article about it:
davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_mediatrix_co-redemptrix.htm

Here’s a bit from wikipedia:
“The concept of Mediatrix has two meanings: Mary gave birth to the redeemer, who is the fountain of all grace. Therefore she participated in the [one, Christ’s] mediating of grace. A second opinion states that Mary, assumed into heaven, participates in the mediating of divine graces of her Son. Popes such as Leo XIII through Pius XII have traditionally supported both interpretations.”

the whole article is useful:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediatrix

so you can see that in Catholic theology also, Christ is the one Mediator but Mary participates in His one mediation, because she is His Mother and is above all other creatures. She has a very special role in Heaven.

God bless

Here’s another beautiful article on Mary the Mediatrix of Graces.
Check out this link: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[thirdn6]

First of all, I’d like to say that I have nothing against my fellow catholics on how we look at our beloved Blessed Mother, of course, except that word or “title”…

English is my fourth language and obviously I’m still having problem with it.
Then this word. Mediatrix!
Can I suggest to my fellow catholics to choose another title if they are not yet contented with how many titles already given to our Lady?
Honestly, to me, it doesn’t sound right. Redeemer… redemptrix. Mediator… mediatrix. (Media tricks???, t-rex…bantrix…)

I’m already tired of so many tricks…:hypno:
Sorry…

 

[gt8952b]

There are a few key points I can list (not comprehensive, but at least a start):

Where do you find this [Mary has God’s grace to distribute to all God’s people] elucidated?

1. Justin Martyr first recorded the Mary-Eve parallel in Dialogue with Trypho
2. Iraneus expanded the Mart-Eve parallel saying there is one divine plan of salvation that Adam disrupted and in which Eve contributed to their disobedience, but Christ is restoring Eden with the contribution of Mary. There’s more in Against Heresies, (A.D. 180) and Proof of Apostolic Preaching,
3. Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (ante A.D. 450):

“The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries.”

1. St. Bernard:

“Coming to her, the Holy Spirit filled her with grace for herself; when the same Spirit pervaded her again, she became superabundant and overflowing with grace for us also.”

Have you ever seen a dogma laying this [Mary is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit] out as a religious fact?

1. In Marialis Cultus, No. 26, Paul VI says, “The Fathers and writers of the Church . . . [in] examining more deeply the mystery of the Incarnation, saw in the mysterious relationship between the Spirit and Mary an aspect redolent of marriage, poetically portrayed by Prudentius: ‘The unwed Virgin espoused by the Spirit.’”
2. Mary has been equated to the temple of the Holy Spirit in Lumen Gentium. We can debate if this is the same thing as spouse…but it’s getting late for me.

Or were you refering to dogma from early in the Church?

But what does that mean, exactly?

I think the OP explains that pretty well, but if you’re confused, I suggest you read some of the linked articles.

So then, if Saint Thomas or uncle Mel brought me to Christ, it really means Saint Mary brought me to Christ?

IMO, not exactly. Maybe if you consider Mary as the temple of the Holy Spirit, or as a favored distributor of grace that the Holy spirit uses, it may be easier to understand the devotion.

This kind of claim [above all other creatures. She has a very special role in Heaven] could be easily misunderstood. One must be careful when expounding upon such pious notions…

consider these quotes:

St Andrew of Crete:

“the Queen of the entire human race faithful in reality to the meaning of her name, who is exalted above all things save only God himself.”

St. Germanus:

“Mary’s honor and dignity surpasses all creation - with the angels taking second place in excellence.”

And St. John Damascene:

“Immeasurable is the difference between the servants of God, (that is, the angels) and the Mother of God.”

I hope that clarifies a few things. I’m also hoping I’ll see some responses to my post about Fatima and Padre Pio…

God Bless

 

[Monica4316]

here are Bible quotes and what the Early Church Fathers said about Mary

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html