B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Al Masetti:
- Status
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Quoting Alan…
One comment, I think we can be very passionate indeed about what we believe…however those of us in psychiatric care not of our volition, need to develop detachment from these emotions if indeed our Faith is not to be put under tremendous stress by psychiatry. If we start displaying passion about what we believe, we are going to find ourselves pronto under a medical order for stelazine, respirodol, chlorpromazine or worse…not that in my experience, they come much worse ! Oh Haliperidol springs to mind as THE WORST!
In short, Alan, and we both agree on this, one just has to learn to play the game to survive psychologically and spiritually…those medications play hell with one’s mind. And that coupled with psychiatry’s skill at manipulating the mind spell take care to say the least!
Hence ‘to play the game’ one needs to adopt conscious behaviours that avoid those situations where such a medical order comes about. That begs the obvious question that if I can adopt behaviours that avoid such medical orders…do I need such medication? Of course not, unless psychiatry discovers it is indeed only an act, then I have problems once again and with mind manipulators who are extremely powerful, a power delegated to them by society “to keep its more creative members in line” to quote Time Magazine on the subject of society and its psychiatrists. And I need to underscore that psychiatry does have real value providing it recognizes its limitations, the limit of the brief that it does have as far as God is concerned…society declares otherwise and what it does do at times in its unbelief is assume a position that is rightfully only God’s.
Be the above as it may…the above medications in instances of extreme psychosis and disconnection from reality can be very helpful - except Haliperidol a cruel drug with truly cruel side effects for sure and I am yet to hear someone say they are quite happy to take it. And I must add that psychiatric medications do have different effects in different people. What I abhor another takes to without problems…one person’s trash, another’s treasure.
I had an interesting experience many years ago after a car accident in a psychiatrist’s office who was employed by the other party’s insurance company and I had to see him for some reason or other…I had been reading a book. He had treated me at the onset of my illness and had been assistant head of the large psychiatric hospital here some 15years previously. He asked me when I went into his office what I was reading. It was a book called “The Sea of Faith” (never forgotten it!). He said to me “Are you still interested in that sort of trash?”…that is the attitude often of psychiatry to religion and religous people.
Should psychiatry stumble over someone in a genuine dark night of the soul…that person will probably find within 5 days they are off their face on medication and can hardly walk and within 10 days they will probably find themselves in an interior state of absolute and complete confusion and in a dark hell of the soul!
Couldn’t resist it!
But then I didn’t really try to resist it!
Excellent post Alan…genius! …thanks heaps!..Barb
Alan…the above is a real flash of geniune genius! Excellent observation and interpretation! It becomes so obvious to me…but I had to read your words above to see it!
More genius Alan…hang on to those thoughts, mate! smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_144_8.gif
One comment, I think we can be very passionate indeed about what we believe…however those of us in psychiatric care not of our volition, need to develop detachment from these emotions if indeed our Faith is not to be put under tremendous stress by psychiatry. If we start displaying passion about what we believe, we are going to find ourselves pronto under a medical order for stelazine, respirodol, chlorpromazine or worse…not that in my experience, they come much worse ! Oh Haliperidol springs to mind as THE WORST!
In short, Alan, and we both agree on this, one just has to learn to play the game to survive psychologically and spiritually…those medications play hell with one’s mind. And that coupled with psychiatry’s skill at manipulating the mind spell take care to say the least!
Hence ‘to play the game’ one needs to adopt conscious behaviours that avoid those situations where such a medical order comes about. That begs the obvious question that if I can adopt behaviours that avoid such medical orders…do I need such medication? Of course not, unless psychiatry discovers it is indeed only an act, then I have problems once again and with mind manipulators who are extremely powerful, a power delegated to them by society “to keep its more creative members in line” to quote Time Magazine on the subject of society and its psychiatrists. And I need to underscore that psychiatry does have real value providing it recognizes its limitations, the limit of the brief that it does have as far as God is concerned…society declares otherwise and what it does do at times in its unbelief is assume a position that is rightfully only God’s.
Be the above as it may…the above medications in instances of extreme psychosis and disconnection from reality can be very helpful - except Haliperidol a cruel drug with truly cruel side effects for sure and I am yet to hear someone say they are quite happy to take it. And I must add that psychiatric medications do have different effects in different people. What I abhor another takes to without problems…one person’s trash, another’s treasure.
I had an interesting experience many years ago after a car accident in a psychiatrist’s office who was employed by the other party’s insurance company and I had to see him for some reason or other…I had been reading a book. He had treated me at the onset of my illness and had been assistant head of the large psychiatric hospital here some 15years previously. He asked me when I went into his office what I was reading. It was a book called “The Sea of Faith” (never forgotten it!). He said to me “Are you still interested in that sort of trash?”…that is the attitude often of psychiatry to religion and religous people.
Should psychiatry stumble over someone in a genuine dark night of the soul…that person will probably find within 5 days they are off their face on medication and can hardly walk and within 10 days they will probably find themselves in an interior state of absolute and complete confusion and in a dark hell of the soul!
Couldn’t resist it!
But then I didn’t really try to resist it!
Excellent post Alan…genius! …thanks heaps!..Barb
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Yes, BJRumph and Barb,
Both of these are entirely apropos and did, in fact, occur to me throughout the entire ordeal.
How does one be “more normal” than other people, when it is predetermined that you are the “less normal” one of a frenzied crowd?
One time, I had made a decision and then quickly reversed it when I learned the decision was not the right one (kept me from getting to go bowling with the others one week) and so I reversed the decision. Normally they want compliance. In this case they say they didn’t trust someone who will change their decisions like that and I got to stay in the ward and furiously pace until they finally let me take an extra shower. These places are run by psych-tech who are psychiatrist wannabees and they think it is their job to out-diagnose the doctor since they are our day-keepers and not just visit like the doctor. Therefore they constantly correct, cajole, second-guess, and the write stuff in our permanent medical records that I would later have to answer to the Defense Investigation Service so that I could keep my security clearance to work at Boeing. (This was my 1981 hospitalization, not my 2001 one)
I totally believe that the son of man will come stealth, and in fact I had visions while locked up that showed how it was to take place. It was kind of a pattern-matching jigsaw puzzle-ish sort of thing, that showed how things will gradually fit into place. A priest who was kind enough to visit me said I must never speak of it. Finally I realized that in certain cases it was my obligation to speak of it or at least my fervent will, as the leper who was cleansed.
That said, people are all afraid to speak of the second coming because it sound just like an “emporer’s new clothes” story. If you tell someone “there he is,” then Christ says they should not believe you. Why? Because the second coming is in the heart and not in the perceived external senses. That’s why we can’t point it out, and that’s why there will be no doubt. Now notice that Christ NEVER said that everyone will see him AT THE SAME TIME. Combine this with other evidence and I actually believe that the kingdom – or a seed thereof – is already in place in our hearts, ready for our “faith eyes” to open and perceive it. If you read Christ’s words about what things are like “in the kingdom” they will roughly translate into “in your heart” when one’s heart has been transformed. Further, I believe that I have recognized this – thus I have no so much as “entered into” the kingdom as “recognized” that Christ has given it to me as a free love-gift. The reason I have to conform my heart and mind to him is not to please him with my good behavior, but to empower the kingdom right from within me.
That’s the most detail I ever disclosed since I saw the first version of the visions in 2001.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Good point. I can thank psychiatry for having tested me with a great deal of vigor, so that I may be found true! That psychiatry was directly responsible IMO for several months I spent when I was terribly suicidal – they having convinced me that I pretty much have to get over my ambitions to be more than a wage-an-hour serf to some kind and understanding employer with a job that doesn’t stwess out my wittle bwain too much.
Pulleeze. When they tell me to stay out of complicated things, they don’t realize my mind was trained to handle complexity, and by artificially removing me from the problem actually increases the problem in my mind, and the fervor with which I’m determined to solve it. After several years I finally recognized how to sum this up in English words, and told my doctor, “OK, you say that for mania ‘we’ reduce stimulus. Has it ever occurred to you that when you reduce external stimulus, it creates a flurry of internal stimulus in my mind that is harder to deal with than when you told me to back off?”
That’s one of the reasons I’ve become so strong at defending and explaining my point of view to other members of this forum. My mind has been screwed every which way by trained professionals. I no longer seem to get thrown off track by a hidden presupposition buried in somebody’s question.
Maybe we should look at psychiatry as going to the gym. We get roughed up by the world, just like the bully in the old comic book ads. We go to the psychiatrist to get formal training in verbal abuse so that we may deal with it more readily on the “outside.” At the same time, our strength is tempered by the stigmas so that our pride is kept in check lest our plans begin to succeed and we stray from God.
I have an excellent audio file from a philosopher on this point – how society and psychiatry presume a psychiatric authority as the arbiter of what’s normal, giving them powers parallel to a medeival arch-bishop. They are not questioned, like the police are, in their diagnoses as there are no checks and balances, and no competent oversight. I’ll get that posted to the web and give you the address. It’s called, “on Being God,” by Alan Watts.
Case in point – Julie used to use Haldol and it seemed to help her. Of course, this was “help” before I gained an integrated perspective of the mental health situation overall.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Sometimes I think they do this sort of stuff on purpose, to bait us into reacting so they can observe our reaction. I am lucky to have a doctor who, while he did get me to quit all my parish leadership posts (e.g. vp of the council, member of stewardship committee, and head of home and school association) and thinks I go on religious tangents, he is open and willing to hear my religious views. Turns out he is a Methodist, but doesn’t talk much about his faith, and he agrees that I have some good observations about faith and human behavior. He actually treats me with respect and has listened to a CD I made of my playing the pathetique sonata by Beethoven and was so impressed he started lending me CD’s of some of the music he likes, including a recording of the sonata. He knows my religion is important to me, but he wants its effects to stay within bounds of course so that I don’t get all weird and start exorcising people or something.
Oh my. I have very little doubt that’s what was going on the whole time, in 2001. In my 1981 lockup I had no idea about the faith as I was on “haitus” from the Church. In 2001, it was so miraculous it was maddening and scary, but somehow I had some inner peace that “somebody” around here was delusional.
When they surrounded me, captured me, locked me onto the cart and wheeled me into the ambulance, the entire time I believed this was a foreshadow of Christ’s trip to the cross. I found myself saying things that Christ said during His passion, only later to verify (for my crazy mind of course) that they were, in fact, biblical.There was a healing of a woman whose tongue was tied, ten minutes after I got to the ward. I watched it, and even saw that I had participated in it and in fact helped precipitate it. How? By simply listening to the woman who was carrying on madly. I heard her yelling, blahblahblahblahtoday’sthedayblahblahblah, and said to her “what did you say?” The staff said, “don’t pay any attention to her. She makes that noise all the time.” She looked at me with fiercely fearful eyes and kept blabbing, then all of a sudden she said, “blahblahblahYouSpirituallyDesertedYourFamilyToBeHereblahblah” which blew me away. That was exactly what I had done not 20 minutes earlier, as I had promised my family I’d be home for supper but had to break it to “follow my path” which was inevitable due to the world’s ability of physically overpowering me. I was astounded.
Soon after Romey (Romanaetha was her name as I later learned) kept looking at me with those huge beady eyes, still yelling as the staff was taking her blood pressure, and suddenly she changed and spoke so that everyone could understand, yelling “it was you. You killed him.” I said to her gently, “I didn’t kill anybody. Who is it you are looking for?” Suddenly a whole lot of people got really interested in our conversation.
Well, if anyone’s been in a psycho ward when “all hell breaks loose” this was it. Suddenly we were all confined to our rooms and there were patients hollering scripture verses up and down the hallway and shouting about “God’s willl be done” and stuff, as security flooded the area. After about a half hour, things calmed down and now Romey was speaking calmly to staff about her medications and treatment. There were lots of interesting expressions on the faces of staff, who quickly got over it because after all, they are professionals.
To some, this might have been a miracle. To me, it all made perfect sense. The woman made strange noises because she could neither express herself so others would understand, nor quench what she had to say. When somebody actually listened to her like she was a human being and not a lab rat, her senses picked up on it and she gained confidence to speak.
Back to hearing myself say the things of Christ (I think He might have said his most profound things under ostensibly great stress) they finally got me drugged to sleep and then woke me up with a start. I was so shocked coming that quickly out of sleep that I sprang up in bed and yelled, “my peace I leave you, my peace I give you,” before I even realized I was conscious.
Strange things happen to minds when they are put under impossible circumstances.
Alan
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Hi Alan…very funny and strange things can happen on psychiatric wards. Here’s a couple of mine:
There was a woman on the ward who was in a wheelchair who was always proclaiming she was Jesus. I got rather suspicious of her and one night she was waiting outside the lift to go up to the dorms so I asked her could I push her wheelchair for her, to which she assented. When we got in the lift, just her and I and her wheelchair, I said to her “Do you REALLY think you are Jesus or are you just having us all on?”
“Well!” she said “tell me, who is the stupid pushing the wheelchair and who is sitting in it?”…I roared with laughter!
Another time we had a senior nurse on the ward who had a bicycle that was her pride and joy, always polished to perfection even the rubber wheels were blackend. She would wheel her bike into the ward hallway, give it a quick rub over with a duster she carried in her bag, lock the bike with a chain and then go on duty…and regular pain she was on duty!
This night, there was this guy on the ward about 50yrs old who was always sprouting about martians and alien invasions etc. etc. He came into the smoking area and said to me: “Barb, can you see Sister X’s bike in the hallway?” to which I assented “Well you watch this” says he. I dont know how, but he got the chain off the bike, got on the bike and rides out the front onto the lawn and starts riding the bike round and round the pathway around the lawn shouting “The aliens are coming! The aliens are coming” Next thing Sister X comes flying out the ward and races after him screaming about her bike with him screaming even louder “The aliens are coming! The aliens are coming!”
How I wihs I had a video camera.
Yep strange things happen on psychiaric wards!
There was a woman on the ward who was in a wheelchair who was always proclaiming she was Jesus. I got rather suspicious of her and one night she was waiting outside the lift to go up to the dorms so I asked her could I push her wheelchair for her, to which she assented. When we got in the lift, just her and I and her wheelchair, I said to her “Do you REALLY think you are Jesus or are you just having us all on?”
“Well!” she said “tell me, who is the stupid pushing the wheelchair and who is sitting in it?”…I roared with laughter!
Another time we had a senior nurse on the ward who had a bicycle that was her pride and joy, always polished to perfection even the rubber wheels were blackend. She would wheel her bike into the ward hallway, give it a quick rub over with a duster she carried in her bag, lock the bike with a chain and then go on duty…and regular pain she was on duty!
This night, there was this guy on the ward about 50yrs old who was always sprouting about martians and alien invasions etc. etc. He came into the smoking area and said to me: “Barb, can you see Sister X’s bike in the hallway?” to which I assented “Well you watch this” says he. I dont know how, but he got the chain off the bike, got on the bike and rides out the front onto the lawn and starts riding the bike round and round the pathway around the lawn shouting “The aliens are coming! The aliens are coming” Next thing Sister X comes flying out the ward and races after him screaming about her bike with him screaming even louder “The aliens are coming! The aliens are coming!”
How I wihs I had a video camera.
Yep strange things happen on psychiaric wards!
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reen12
Guest
Perhaps my experience on a psychiatric ward was somewhat different [it was just a normal-looking hospital floor.] The staff were courteous, kind, professional and caring. And one reality possibly made my “stay” there less onerous: I knew I needed to be there.
[not that I had much choice in the matter.]
There was another floor, where I’d go daily, that was a
locked ward, to take part in “activities” [coloring really strange
coloring pages, IMO…and I thought *I was sick!..
]
Who chose those pictures?!!] To this day, I can’t
figure that out.
In any case, some of the kindest and most gentle actions
I ever saw, took place between patients on those units.
Truly Christ-like. And I recall thinking: Too bad
people on the “outside” can’t see this.
And I would look at some of their faces and think:
This is Christ, bearing the crown of thorns.
It reminded me of a painting by Georges Rouault:
“Il est malitrate” He is mis-treated…mis-treated by
many, in the world around them, yet well-cared for, here.
moma.org/collection/provenance/items/414.41.html
clemusart.com/explore/artistwork.asp?creatorid=660&recNo=0&woRecNo=1
How good those people were, so many of them,
both staff and patients.
Just my expereince,
reen12
[not that I had much choice in the matter.]
There was another floor, where I’d go daily, that was a
locked ward, to take part in “activities”
[coloring really strangecoloring pages, IMO…and I thought *I was sick!..
]Who chose those pictures?!!] To this day, I can’t
figure that out.
In any case, some of the kindest and most gentle actions
I ever saw, took place between patients on those units.
Truly Christ-like. And I recall thinking: Too bad
people on the “outside” can’t see this.
And I would look at some of their faces and think:
This is Christ, bearing the crown of thorns.
It reminded me of a painting by Georges Rouault:
“Il est malitrate” He is mis-treated…mis-treated by
many, in the world around them, yet well-cared for, here.
moma.org/collection/provenance/items/414.41.html
clemusart.com/explore/artistwork.asp?creatorid=660&recNo=0&woRecNo=1
How good those people were, so many of them,
both staff and patients.
Just my expereince,
reen12
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reen12
Guest
Quoting Alan…
That is *exactly *what happend. :yup:
cf. post #27]
And, in some sense - despite it’s ghastliness on so many
levels - it constituted one of life’s finer moments…the
“false” fell away and the “true”…appeared.
I’ve never been able to articulate that before.
Many thanks, Alan.
“Got caught at harboring a state of mind…”
Good grief. You’re right! :tiphat:
Best,
reen
quote: BarbaraTherese
Whoaaaa! Alan! You’ve got it!
That is *exactly *what happend. :yup:
cf. post #27]
And, in some sense - despite it’s ghastliness on so many
levels - it constituted one of life’s finer moments…the
“false” fell away and the “true”…appeared.
I’ve never been able to articulate that before.
Many thanks, Alan.
“Got caught at harboring a state of mind…”
Good grief. You’re right! :tiphat:
Best,
reen
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reen12
Guest
quote: Alan
occurrs with any frequency, to a kid growing up, it can be
-literally- I hold, crazifying.
God is Love -----> followed by a graphic, conveying the
“discomfort” of the damned.
The hyper-rational kid will figure: Huh?
“This does not compute.”
Here’s one of my favorites:
In the days of fast and abstinence, willfully eating meat on
Friday was legislated a mortal sin.
I can recall thinking, in 1962, when the fast food burger
places opened and, thus, temptation now reigned supreme:
“Let me get this straight. X - who cares for ailing parents -
goes to Mass each Sunday, and has never had much
of this world’s goods, gives into temptation and munches
a hamburger on a Friday afternoon.
Wham! an accident. [X was riding the bus, because
he couldn’t afford a car.] Not even time for a ‘perfect act of contrition.’ :nope:
He hadn’t even finished his lunch.
He’s toast, eternally.”
Cut to 16 point type, Catechetical Gothic -----> God is Love.
Vertigo ensues.
[Good ol’ “double-message.”]
reen
I think that’s referred to as a “double-message” and if it
occurrs with any frequency, to a kid growing up, it can be
-literally- I hold, crazifying.
God is Love -----> followed by a graphic, conveying the
“discomfort” of the damned.
The hyper-rational kid will figure: Huh?
“This does not compute.”
Here’s one of my favorites:
In the days of fast and abstinence, willfully eating meat on
Friday was legislated a mortal sin.
I can recall thinking, in 1962, when the fast food burger
places opened and, thus, temptation now reigned supreme:
“Let me get this straight. X - who cares for ailing parents -
goes to Mass each Sunday, and has never had much
of this world’s goods, gives into temptation and munches
a hamburger on a Friday afternoon.
Wham! an accident. [X was riding the bus, because
he couldn’t afford a car.] Not even time for a ‘perfect act of contrition.’ :nope:
He hadn’t even finished his lunch.
He’s toast, eternally.”
Cut to 16 point type, Catechetical Gothic -----> God is Love.
Vertigo ensues.
[Good ol’ “double-message.”]
reen
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reen12
Guest
Alan and Barbara, those anecdotes were priceless. :yup:
When all h*** broke loose *
the staff quickly shooed us upstairs. And I remember thinking
that I was supposed to help out, in this, until I realized that
I was a* patient* - not staff !
Hmmmm, I thought, there’s something to be said for not
having to be the “responsible party” in chaos …for once.
And, Alan, I know just what you mean about actually
listening to that lady. Amazing, or is it grace?
[Post #25]. And, I can well believe that, suddenly,
staff became very interested in the exchange.
I shall not say how I got “signed in” but suffice
it to say “all hell broke loose!”
IOW:
quote: Alan
reen*
When all h*** broke loose *
the staff quickly shooed us upstairs. And I remember thinking
that I was supposed to help out, in this, until I realized that
I was a* patient* - not staff !
Hmmmm, I thought, there’s something to be said for not
having to be the “responsible party” in chaos …for once.
And, Alan, I know just what you mean about actually
listening to that lady. Amazing, or is it grace?
[Post #25]. And, I can well believe that, suddenly,
staff became very interested in the exchange.
I shall not say how I got “signed in” but suffice
it to say “all hell broke loose!”
IOW:
quote: Alan
I sometimes wonder. What does God think of all this?
reen*
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
LOL!
Don’t forget the part about, “you must love us, and it had best not be only because we are commanding you to, but also because you want to anyway. That’s an order.”
Or how about the child asking for clarification of an order, “quit trying to stall and do what I say.”
Or how about the child asking for clarification of a punishment, “you know VERY WELL what you did, young man!”
Or how about the same child as a preteen, confused and won’t talk to the authorities who treated him as above. Those same authorities say, “why won’t you trust us? Why are you so cynical and non-trusting? How can we help you if you don’t open up?”
(the child is thinking: their help is what got me like this)
(the adults are thinking: ah, another kid with ostensibly good parents bites the dust. “Despite our best efforts, some just are bound to go astray. Oh well, that’s statistics – sorry kid.”)
I loved that quote you gave me but do not remember the author’s name, “no matter how cynical I become I can’t keep up.”
To me, it’s a wonder that people are as emotionally strong as they are. If they weren’t, they could never survive our assistance at growing up and becoming “socialized” with the proper attitudes.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
What surprised me was how obvious it was to me, and how oblivious everyone around evidently was even afterwards as to what had happened to Romey.
There was no trick or magic, just a sincere attempt by one human being to truly understand what another is conveying. It may have helped that I was in such a mental state that I had begun seeing everyone and everything as a critical part of the whole puzzle. When I first saw Romey, I was not afraid or put off by her; for some reason I thought she must have been some sort of prophet, speaking in tongues, and it was up to me to listen to her even though I did not know anything about tongues. In that mental state, I was truly “too dumb to know” that it was a waste of time listening to her, and I think she picked up on that. She had no idea who I was or what I thought about anything, but she knew I was listening. Would that more people, just once in their life at least, know the experience of someone trying to listen to them when nobody seems to be able to…
To me, the biggest fear in this society is to be misunderstood by others. That’s probably why I got to the point I can hardly write anything without a dissertation to explain and qualify it. People say, “shut up we don’t need all that detail” but when the detail is missing they fill in the blanks with their own fears and limited thinking and end up misunderstanding and improperly reacting to it.
Assumption and presumption. Killers.
Romey obviously shared that fear. She was a very strong woman, and I nearly cried to think what she must have been through before she wound up acting like she had been.
That is a good question. I’m comforted to think God understands our plight, as He sent His only Son to us – his Son who had such a unique state of consciousness that He amazed everybody from even a young age. Look what assumptions they made about Him, and what they did to Him. Obviously prophets share a consciousness that is not like the rest of the people. That didn’t set well with anybody throughout history.
Let me speculate how God feels about all this:
Mark 12:
Of course, I have this problems that I consider everybody a prophet – or at least a “potential prophet” from which I am to learn something. That doesn’t mean I’ll like what they say or even agree with it, but it means to me that they have a bit of Truth hiding somewhere in their minds or hearts that I don’t have, and if I show them love and try to listen to them, they just might reveal that part of the Truth the Holy Spirit finds destined for me. Some might not think I believe this because of the way I react to people’s ideas sometime, but I fall back on the lame though true excuse that I am just a sinner.
Alan
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Rebecca_New
Guest
We need another psycologist like Erickson to update his age/emotional growth charts. He was definately brilliant to define what we are all “supposed” to be doing at any specific age. If an adult acted like a teenager we would say “mental illness” when maybe they never got to develope that particular life experience. Therefore they are only “mentally ill” in one aspect.
Another point I would like to make is that if Michael Angelo was put on paxil would we have the outcome of his creativity? Who is to say that his emotional anguish , or what might be called his"emotional illness" , was what spurred his greatness. I think with all the side effects of the psychotropic medications we need to consider why we are masking someone’s true innerself and stop being so hasty to intervene with medications.
Another point I would like to make is that if Michael Angelo was put on paxil would we have the outcome of his creativity? Who is to say that his emotional anguish , or what might be called his"emotional illness" , was what spurred his greatness. I think with all the side effects of the psychotropic medications we need to consider why we are masking someone’s true innerself and stop being so hasty to intervene with medications.
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reen12
Guest
quotes from: AlanFromWitchita
[My, what a trenchant observation.] :yup:
reen
“No matter how cynical I get, I can’t keep up.”
-Nora Ephron
Uhhhh*…*yes!!!
[My, what a trenchant observation.] :yup:
reen
“No matter how cynical I get, I can’t keep up.”
-Nora Ephron
R
reen12
Guest
quote: AlanFromWitchita
Didn’t surprise me one bit, when I read your account.
Made perfect sense, Alan - perfect sense.
quote: AlanFromWitchita
reen
[cf. post #25, for reference]
Didn’t surprise me one bit, when I read your account.
Made perfect sense, Alan - perfect sense.
quote: AlanFromWitchita
Listening and sanctity are cousins.
reen
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reen12
Guest
quotes from: AlanFromWitchita
reen
God cried for her, through His Son…
There’s nothing I could add to that observation.
reen
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reen12
Guest
quote: Rebecca New
I don’t know what to think - in terms of medication.
Except to note that we experience the limitations
that inhere in being here, now - without the insight
that will be available 20 years from now - in terms
pharmaceutical.
Yet, it does give one pause - to think of Michelangelo
on an…SSRI.
reen12
Interesting observations, thank you for same.
I don’t know what to think - in terms of medication.
Except to note that we experience the limitations
that inhere in being here, now - without the insight
that will be available 20 years from now - in terms
pharmaceutical.
Yet, it does give one pause - to think of Michelangelo
on an…SSRI.
reen12
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Al Masetti:
They know with clarity moral concepts of right and wrong but do not care at all about them, which is why they are so clever at avoiding detention and are skilled deceivers. Ted Bundy for instance.
Our jails are full of psychopaths and sociopaths and the disorder is ranged in that not all are murderers as in the common imagination. But the above criteria is intrinsic to the condition or disorder.
Per capita there is far less crime amongst the mentally ill, the majority of crimes and serious crimes by far are amongst the normal which includes sociopaths and psychopaths in that they do not suffer mental illness with knowledge of right and wrong diminished by a disordered mental state. This truth challenges popular concepts…most do think that psychopaths and sociopaths are mentally ill…not one of ours (mentally ill), rather belonging to the so called ‘normal’.
Barb
Hi Al…*sociopaths and psychopaths are not mentally ill. *They have personality disorders and know the difference between right and wrong. They have no guilt feelings whatsoever, cannot empathize at all and have no conscience. Their sole investment at any cost at all is their own self and its needs and wants as perceived by them and twisted as it were needs and wants. But they are not mentally ill.
They know with clarity moral concepts of right and wrong but do not care at all about them, which is why they are so clever at avoiding detention and are skilled deceivers. Ted Bundy for instance.
Our jails are full of psychopaths and sociopaths and the disorder is ranged in that not all are murderers as in the common imagination. But the above criteria is intrinsic to the condition or disorder.
Per capita there is far less crime amongst the mentally ill, the majority of crimes and serious crimes by far are amongst the normal which includes sociopaths and psychopaths in that they do not suffer mental illness with knowledge of right and wrong diminished by a disordered mental state. This truth challenges popular concepts…most do think that psychopaths and sociopaths are mentally ill…not one of ours (mentally ill), rather belonging to the so called ‘normal’.
Barb
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Hi Al…*sociopaths and psychopaths are not mentally ill. *They have personality disorders and know the difference between right and wrong. They have no guilt feelings whatsoever, cannot empathize at all and have no conscience. Their sole investment at any cost at all is their own self and its needs and wants as perceived by them and twisted as it were needs and wants. But they are not mentally ill.
They know with clarity moral concepts of right and wrong but do not care at all about them, which is why they are so clever at avoiding detention and are skilled deceivers. Ted Bundy for instance.
Our jails are full of psychopaths and sociopaths and the disorder is ranged in that not all are murderers as in the common imagination. But the above criteria is intrinsic to the condition or disorder.
Per capita there is far less crime amongst the mentally ill, the majority of crimes and serious crimes by far are amongst the normal which includes sociopaths and psychopaths in that they do not suffer mental illness with knowledge of right and wrong diminished by a disordered mental state. This truth challenges popular concepts…most do think that psychopaths and sociopaths are mentally ill…not one of ours (mentally ill), rather belonging to the so called ‘normal’.
Barb
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Rebecca New:
Undoubtedly if Michael Angelo had attended a psychiatriste’s office either voluntarily because of his anguish…or sent there by relatives and friends who insighted his inner turmoil…he would perhaps have been on so much medication he wouldn’t have known his pallet from his chisel and probably would have spent so much time in a psych. ward he wouldn’t have had time to display his genius with pallet and chisel.
I have seen some patients come onto a ward and admitted and I’ve wondered why they were there…three days later they were a complete mess.
This is not to say that psychiatry etc. has no constructive and positive use…but for as many as it is said ‘fall through the net’ and remain untreated, many indeed are caught up in the net and are caught indeed and unjustly! Psychiatry can be a tool of society with power granted by society to ensure the out of line in any way come into line and hence pleasing to the majority or herd. If one rocks the boat then one has done the crime according to society and its communities and hence the herd…and if caught rocking the boat of the herd with the values of the herd one will do the time often and probably with psychiatry as goaler.
Barb
Well said indeed Rebecca…if only our psychiatristes and psychologists insighted the above!
Undoubtedly if Michael Angelo had attended a psychiatriste’s office either voluntarily because of his anguish…or sent there by relatives and friends who insighted his inner turmoil…he would perhaps have been on so much medication he wouldn’t have known his pallet from his chisel and probably would have spent so much time in a psych. ward he wouldn’t have had time to display his genius with pallet and chisel.
I have seen some patients come onto a ward and admitted and I’ve wondered why they were there…three days later they were a complete mess.
This is not to say that psychiatry etc. has no constructive and positive use…but for as many as it is said ‘fall through the net’ and remain untreated, many indeed are caught up in the net and are caught indeed and unjustly! Psychiatry can be a tool of society with power granted by society to ensure the out of line in any way come into line and hence pleasing to the majority or herd. If one rocks the boat then one has done the crime according to society and its communities and hence the herd…and if caught rocking the boat of the herd with the values of the herd one will do the time often and probably with psychiatry as goaler.
Barb
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