ok well if u ever try to convert someone or tell someone about your faith than definitely do not tell them that u believe and/or the church believes that babies who aren’t baptized and die go to hell. Besides this is not a very positive conversation. are u getting anything out of it? any of us?
Your position regarding unbaptized infants is entirely coherent with what the Catholic Church teaches.
In fact, for worldly people, who approach it from a secular view instead of from a proper Catholic foundation, there are statements in it general enough to be easily misunderstood.
That is what it is.The fact that it was revised subsequent to its initial promulgation has absolutely no bearing on its authority or relevance to Catholics.The current CCC says nothing about Limbo directly whatsoever.
When the CCC was released it was noted that it did not replace local catechisms, and I will also note it was revised and changed since it’s release. In other words, it needed *correction and improvement. I expect it will be revised and changed again in the future. *
See the Catechism 846-848. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches. That is not heresy.
Ecumenical Councils do not promulgate “ex cathedra” teachings, according to the Catholic Church. Only the Pope does such, according to Catholic teaching.“If anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that people obtain the grace of justification from God without them or a desire for them, by faith alone, though all are not necessary for each individual: let him be anathema."
“If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema.”
- The Ecumenical Council of Trent
-That- is the doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church on baptism. Ex cathedra.
- The Ecumenical Council of Trent
You’ll find this repeated over and over again.
I think a knowledgeable person understands you have to be indirect to reconcile the CCC with it and not instead become a sede vacantist. Which was what I said. Also of course, the CCC does not have the same authoritative weight as as ex cathedra statements of an Ecumenical Council confirmed by the Pope. It’s a catechism.
from the VATICAN WEBSITE, THE CATECHISM STATES:Pope Pius IV received, and confirmed, ex cathedra, all the decrees. Which is the norm of what happens with an Ecumenical Council.
And furthermore, ex cathedra does not require a Pope. It’s a term that can be used generally for authoritative teaching. It is Latin for ‘from the chair’.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
**846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: **
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
**847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
**
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
[vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm](http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am forever stunned when anyone tries to refute this Catholic teaching.
It boggles the mind, IMO.Shin, go back to posts prior to Post 47If you’re responding to me, I have no idea what you are trying to say or respond to or what you think you are responding to.
I have been talking about the means that God requires. The CCC statement is simply a general reassurance about means possibly being applied.
I keep getting these off base replies.
Can’t see that ANYONE has denied the Council of Trent.Do you deny the Council of Trent?
Because I have reconciled everything properly, but you seem to not have.
Nope, according to Catholic teaching, “ex cathedra” means specifically that it was taught by the Pope, infallibly, in virtue of his office.
How does what Pope Pius IV taught cohere with Vatican Councils I and II, which were the only ecumenical councils to teach authoritatively on infallibility (whether papal or otherwise)?Pope Pius IV received, and confirmed, ex cathedra, all the decrees. Which is the norm of what happens with an Ecumenical Council.
And furthermore, ex cathedra does not require a Pope. It’s a term that can be used generally for authoritative teaching. It is Latin for ‘from the chair’.
I do not know what else to say as I do not know where you are on this? Have you read much of the other thread? It really delves into the issue well with the pros and cons.
"And whereas the said holy Synod, in its reverence towards the Apostolic See, and following also in the traces of the ancient Councils, has, in a decree made thereon in public Session, requested of us the confirmation of all Its decrees, passed in our time and that of our predecessors; We, being made acquainted with the request of the said Synod, first by the letters of our Legates, then, upon their return, by what they diligently reported in the name of the Synod; after mature deliberation had thereon with our venerable brethren the cardinals of the holy Roman Church, and, above all, having invoked the assistance of the Holy Spirit; after that we had ascertained that all those decrees were Catholic, and useful and salutary to the Christian people, We, to the praise of Almighty God, with the advice and assent of our brethren aforesaid, have this day, in our secret consistory, confirmed by Apostolic authority all and singular those decrees, and have ordained that the same be received and observed by all the faithful of Christ; as also, for the clearer information of all men, We do, by the tenour of this letter, confirm them, and ordain that they be received and observed.
And, in virtue of holy obedience, and under the penalties by the sacred canons appointed, and others more grievous, even those of deprivaiton, to be inflicted at our discretion, We do also command all and each of our venerable brethren, the patriarchs, archbishops, bishops, and all other prelates whatsoever of the churches, of what estate, grade, order and dignity soever, they may be, even though distinguished with the honour of the cardinalate, diligently to observe the said decrees and statutes in their own churches, cities, and dioceses, both in their courts of justice and elsewhere, and to cause the same to be inviolably observed, each by his own subjects, in so far as they are in any way concerned therein; silencing gainsayers, and the refractory, by means of judicial sentences, and by the censures also and ecclesiastical penalties contained in the said decrees; calling in also, if need be, the help of the secular arm. And, by the bowels of the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, We admonish and conjure our said most beloved son the emperor elect, and the Christian kings, republics, and princes, with that piety with which they assisted, by their ambassadors, at the Council, with the same piety and equal zeal, for the sake of God’s honour, and the salvation of their people, in reverence also towards the Apostolic See, and the sacred Synod, to support, when needful, with their assistance and countenance, the prelates in executing and observing the decrees of the said Council ; and not to permit opinions adverse to the sound and salutary doctrine of the Council to be received by the people who are under their sway, but utterly to interdict such."
Pope Pius IV