The message I sent my theology teacher

[Shin]

There’s a thread that discussed Limbo rather thoroughly here.

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin only, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Denzinger 693)

The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.” (Denzinger 464)

 

[orange93]

(part 4 of 4)

knowing our sins is not a death sentence, it is a freedom, the only thing that is a death sentence for us is refusing to love God, to truly and sincerely love God with all our being and without reserve is true freedom and the key to perfection.
we are weak to sin because we are slaves to our passions, but if, by the grace of God, we can get control of ourselves, then that is true freedom, our passions enslave us, because they prompt us to sin whether we want to or not, but being good is something we only do if we want to! *that *is freedom.

i think you would really like these -
youtube.com/user/AFaithfulServant#g/c/291A7A1EB7543269
audiosancto.org/

that’s Fulton J. Sheen(the Thomas Aquinas of our time :] )
and sermons from priests of the FSSP,
both very good and very informative, i think you will like them alot.

ok well that’s all, hope this helps :> take care.

Thank you SO much. You have lifted my spirits and given me new hope. God bless you. You are a really good person for taking so much time to help me!

 

[Marc_Anthony]

There’s a thread that discussed Limbo rather thoroughly here.

The Council of Florence: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin only, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Denzinger 693)

The Second Council of Lyons: “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.” (Denzinger 464)

Were those infallibly made statements?

 

[Shin]

Yes. These are infallible statements.

These are Ecumenical Councils, making definitive statements, confirmed by the Popes.

Those who die in original sin do not go to Heaven. Period.

Limbo is considered the edge of Hell. It is simply the name for its place on the edge. The edge of Hell exists, no doubt about it. There’s deep Hell, and there’s not so deep Hell, and then there’s the very edge of it. The punishments increase as you go down, and decrease as you go up.

At the very edge – the limbus – It’s called Limbo.

Some people want to call it something else. A rose by any other name? Obfuscation?

There were some good audio sermons on that thread on the subject too.

To escape Limbo before death, for those in original sin, but without personal sin, baptism is required first.

We are not born in a state of salvation. To say so is to deny the existence and consequences of original sin.

‘If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants carried off by death before being baptized can obtain the remission of original sin.’

St. Augustine, Father, Bishop, Doctor of the Church

 

[diggerdomer]

Thank you both for your responses. Can’t you understand though, that its really hard to follow God when there are so many differing opinions about him? So many differing opinions about religion and faith? About right and wrong? About proper fear of the lord? I once considered atheism. And that is where I developed profound respect for them. I never saw this as un-noble since I used to consider being one. It was partly because of what I saw happening in the world and partly because of a movie I saw. All around me people want to trick me or show me the way. I have a few friends who are agnostics. I like them, and believe through what I see that they are good people. I’m just saying that if I was God, which I cannot and never will be (I understand), I would let them in.

On the other hand:
I have been scared out of my mind about hell. I think I may be obsessive compulsive though(I’m not sure). I have a few “sins” that I really have trouble with. They might be considered mortal but i never considered them to be until 4 or 5 months ago. I don’t want to feel eternal pain(burning).

If you’re Catholic, follow the Church. That is in the end a sure way to follow God. You’re not alone.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes. These are infallible statements.

These are Ecumenical Councils, making definitive statements, confirmed by the Popes.

Those who die in original sin do not go to Heaven. Period.

Limbo is considered the edge of Hell. It is simply the name for its place on the edge. The edge of Hell exists, no doubt about it. There’s deep Hell, and there’s not so deep Hell, and then there’s the very edge of it. The punishments increase as you go down, and decrease as you go up.

At the very edge – the limbus – It’s called Limbo.

Some people want to call it something else. A rose by any other name? Obfuscation?

There were some good audio sermons on that thread on the subject too.

To escape Limbo before death, for those in original sin, but without personal sin, baptism is required first.

We are not born in a state of salvation. To say so is to deny the existence and consequences of original sin.

‘If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants carried off by death before being baptized can obtain the remission of original sin.’

St. Augustine, Father, Bishop, Doctor of the Church

The Catholic Church does not teach that those statements were taught infallibly.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Ooooh, conflicting statements.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes. These are infallible statements.

These are Ecumenical Councils, making definitive statements, confirmed by the Popes.

Those who die in original sin do not go to Heaven. Period.

Limbo is considered the edge of Hell. It is simply the name for its place on the edge. The edge of Hell exists, no doubt about it. There’s deep Hell, and there’s not so deep Hell, and then there’s the very edge of it. The punishments increase as you go down, and decrease as you go up.

At the very edge – the limbus – It’s called Limbo.

Some people want to call it something else. A rose by any other name? Obfuscation?

There were some good audio sermons on that thread on the subject too.

To escape Limbo before death, for those in original sin, but without personal sin, baptism is required first.

We are not born in a state of salvation. To say so is to deny the existence and consequences of original sin.

‘If you want to be a Catholic do not believe, do not say, do not teach that infants carried off by death before being baptized can obtain the remission of original sin.’

St. Augustine, Father, Bishop, Doctor of the Church

This is Dante - that is, literature - not what the Church teaches about Hell.

 

[Shin]

Random Internet guy statements vs. two Ecumenical Council’s declarations and a Doctor of the Church.

Not counting all the rest of the references on the other thread.

 

[moon1234]

(part 4 of 4)
limbo is a dogma as well,.

This is 100% false. Limbo is NOT a dogma of the faith. It is a theological idea that some in the Church have proposed. Pope Benedict has stated that we no longer should speak of Limbo as it is NOT DOGMA of the church.

Technically only Heaven, Purgatory and Hell have been revealed to us. We do know there are diffent levels of Hell. People in Purgatory have already merited heaven, but need to be purified before receiving the beatific vision.

Hell (being a greek word) simply means the place of the dead. Babies who are not baptised before they die would go to Hell since they still have the punishment of original sin, but lack any commission of actual sin.

Babies who die without Baptism would never be given the beatific vision (the ability to see God face to face). However since they would have committed no actual sin they would not suffer in Hell.

Limbo should no longer be discussed as the Holy Father requested.

One unique twist on this is the Holy Innocents. These were the children who were killed for the very fact of them being Christian. These children, even though not baptised with water, were baptised in Blood as they were killed for their being Christian. This fact merited heaven for them.

A mother and child, even in modern times, who are martyred for being Christian would both merit heaven provided the mother is truely repentant. The unborn child killed for being Christian would merit heaven immediatly having committed no actual sin.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

This is 100% false. Limbo is NOT a dogma of the faith. It is a theological idea that some in the Church have proposed. Pope Benedict has stated that we no longer should speak of Limbo as it is NOT DOGMA of the church.

Technically only Heaven, Purgatory and Hell have been revealed to us. We do know there are diffent levels of Hell. People in Purgatory have already merited heaven, but need to be purified before receiving the beatific vision.

Hell (being a greek word) simply means the place of the dead. Babies who are not baptised before they die would go to Hell since they still have the punishment of original sin, but lack any commission of actual sin.

Babies who die without Baptism would never be given the beatific vision (the ability to see God face to face). However since they would have committed no actual sin they would not suffer in Hell.

Limbo should no longer be discussed as the Holy Father requested.

My understanding of Limbo has always been a place of eternal bliss where unbaptized babies go because they can’t see the Beatific Vision.

However I always heard that we just don’t know where unbaptized babies go. The Holy Father is merciful it is possible that God can let them into Heaven simply as an act of mercy. He is not limited to the Sacraments.

 

[moon1234]

My understanding of Limbo has always been a place of eternal bliss where unbaptized babies go because they can’t see the Beatific Vision.

However I always heard that we just don’t know where unbaptized babies go. The Holy Father is merciful it is possible that God can let them into Heaven simply as an act of mercy. He is not limited to the Sacraments.

God has out and out revealed to man that there is no salvation without baptism. The three possible forms of baptism are:

1. Baptism by Water (the normal route)
2. Baptism by Blood (Being martyred for your faith)
3. Baptism by desire (Very rare. Requires consciene effort on the part of the one requesting it.)

A baby can receive number 1. Possibly number 2, but this is rare. Never number 3 as a baby is unable to desire for themselves. Another person can not desire for them and have it be effectual.

Again God has revealed Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Inventing or hoping for some other path is protestant thinking. We need to take seriously the charge placed upon us as Christians to get our fellow man to heaven. Why do people persist in thinking there are more methods than God has revealed.

An unbaptised baby does NOT go to heaven. Period. It is very sad to think about, but maybe that is point. It is to remind us of how important baptism is.

 

[Shin]

God has out and out revealed to man that there is no salvation without baptism. The three possible forms of baptism are:

1. Baptism by Water (the normal route)
2. Baptism by Blood (Being martyred for your faith)
3. Baptism by desire (Very rare. Requires consciene effort on the part of the one requesting it.)

A baby can receive number 1. Possibly number 2, but this is rare. Never number 3 as a baby is unable to desire for themselves. Another person can not desire for them and have it be effectual.

Again God has revealed Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Inventing or hoping for some other path is protestant thinking. We need to take seriously the charge placed upon us as Christians to get our fellow man to heaven. Why do people persist in thinking there are more methods than God has revealed.

An unbaptised baby does NOT go to heaven. Period. It is very sad to think about, but maybe that is point. It is to remind us of how important baptism is.

Yes, that about sums it up.

I will add there are absolutely no authoritative magisterial statements against Limbo that I know of, only non authoritative, personal opinions and speculations.

People need to learn how to weigh the authority of the Church’s declarations properly. So they do not fall into accidental or imprudent heresy.

Original sin is de fide. No salvation without baptism is too. We are not born going to Heaven. That is -why- we need a Saviour, and why Christ’s birth, passion, and death are so important.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

God has out and out revealed to man that there is no salvation without baptism. The three possible forms of baptism are:

1. Baptism by Water (the normal route)
2. Baptism by Blood (Being martyred for your faith)
3. Baptism by desire (Very rare. Requires consciene effort on the part of the one requesting it.)

A baby can receive number 1. Possibly number 2, but this is rare. Never number 3 as a baby is unable to desire for themselves. Another person can not desire for them and have it be effectual.

Again God has revealed Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. Inventing or hoping for some other path is protestant thinking. We need to take seriously the charge placed upon us as Christians to get our fellow man to heaven. Why do people persist in thinking there are more methods than God has revealed.

An unbaptised baby does NOT go to heaven. Period. It is very sad to think about, but maybe that is point. It is to remind us of how important baptism is.

I’m going to have to withold judgement on this one because there are several conflicting statements on this thread. I sense that there’s more to this theological debate.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t know-yet-who’s wrong and who’s right.

 

[Shin]

I’m going to have to withold judgement on this one because there are several conflicting statements on this thread. I sense that there’s more to this theological debate.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I just don’t know-yet-who’s wrong and who’s right.

I suggest you start by picking up something like Ludwig Ott’s ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’.

It’s a sad fact that today’s Catholic catechesis is so poor that the very basics are not taught well. There have been plenty of other times of great trouble however, it is not so uncommon, even if today is especially poor.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I suggest you start by picking up something like Ludwig Ott’s ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma’.

It’s a sad fact that today’s Catholic catechesis is so poor that the very basics are not taught well. There have been plenty of other times of great trouble however, it is not so uncommon, even if today is especially poor.

I learned something completely different from what you’re saying here from my (very good) Theology teacher and my (not so good) Theology book.

 

[Shin]

I learned something completely different from what you’re saying here from my (very good) Theology teacher and my (not so good) Theology book.

I don’t know your teacher, and I can only hope that your theology teacher believes the Church can make infallible declarations at Ecumenical Councils. Dissent and bad teaching is more common than proper teaching, people love giving opinions as if they were articles of Faith.

You should also try Denziger’s ‘The Sources of Catholic Dogma’. These are standard references.

Then you may look up yourself the many times the necessity of baptism, the consequences of original sin, etc. have been declared authoritatively as de fide.

Most of this stuff is cited on the web as well I will add.

 

[Indyann]

I don’t know your teacher, and I can only hope that your theology teacher believes the Church can make infallible declarations at Ecumenical Councils. Dissent and bad teaching is more common than proper teaching, people love giving opinions as if they were articles of Faith.

You should also try Denziger’s ‘The Sources of Catholic Dogma’. These are standard references.

Then you may look up yourself the many times the necessity of baptism, the consequences of original sin, etc. have been declared authoritatively as de fide.

Most of this stuff is cited on the web as well I will add.

So are you saying that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is NOT a trustworthy source of catechesis for Catholics?

 

[SouthpawLink]

So are you saying that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is NOT a trustworthy source of catechesis for Catholics?

I do not mean to answer for the other poster, but I would like to say that yes, while the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a trustworthy source of catechesis, this does not preclude other documents - especially collections of magisterial declarations (used by priests, no less!) - from also being trustworthy sources of catechesis. If we cannot quote ecumenical councils with confidence, then how can we have any confience in quoting a universal catechism? Are not universal catechisms, in part, based upon the teaching of the ecumenical councils?

 

[Indyann]

I do not mean to answer for the other poster, but I would like to say that yes, while the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a trustworthy source of catechesis, this does not preclude other documents - especially collections of magisterial declarations (used by priests, no less!) - from also being trustworthy sources of catechesis. If we cannot quote ecumenical councils with confidence, then how can we have any confience in quoting a universal catechism? Are not universal catechisms, in part, based upon the teaching of the ecumenical councils?

Of course, the universal catechism is based, in part, on the teaching of ecumenical councils. However, a couple of posters have declared unequivicably that unbaptized infants are not in heaven.In fact, if I am reading correctly, they say they are in hell.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that we are to entrust these souls to the mercy of God. I am having trouble understanding how both positions can be true.