The Messiah coming twice in the Old Testament?

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Shikomu

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This is a rephrasing of a previous topic as I did not properly convey my question. Is there any mention in the Old Testament of the Messiah coming twice? This is a common reason among Jews as to why Yeshua of Nazareth is not the Messiah, as Yeshua of Nazareth did not fulfil all the Messianic prophecies the first time around.
 
To my knowledge there is not, but that’s some pretty crazy cherry picking if they’re using that as a reason…

Here are all these things he did fulfill, but because God never mentioned this one particular aspect of his messiahship, obviously he isn’t the messiah…

Pretty weak reasoning…
 
It may have been a post by me in a topic I think was deleted. I’ll retract the claim, insofar as I don’t know nearly enough to speak to it. I only paraphrased others, and that’s not sufficient for a good point.

The basis of it is that there have been Jews who have supported the idea that the suffering servant of Isaiah was Messianic and not just representative of the nation of Israel as a whole. And there’s a little more. But I don’t have the study or scholarship to speak to it, and I probably shouldn’t voice things like that floating around in my head unless I have a good deal more certainty.
 
Aquinas was of the belief that if one took the Tanakh (OT) literally, then Jesus could not be viewed as being the Messiah for the reason mentioned in the OP.
 
In many ways the Old testament alludes to a second coming
for instance Isaiah says’ he will reign on the throne of David forever and ever, and yet be despised, rejected, suffer and die!
This has to be the one character as the messiah must fulfil both roles, he has done the first and we await his second where he told us he will rule forever and his kingdom will come.
 
first of all what do the Jewish people believe about the messiah making an appearance.
 
To answer this question one must remember that the Messiah is YHWH incarnate. And as predicted by the Messiah 2000 years ago, His second coming will be as the arrival on earth of YHWH, the Creator of the universe. This is an event both foretold by the Messiah and predicted by the Jewish prophets. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Jeremiah 25:32-33 are relevant passages to this idea.

As the prophetess Patty Griffin puts it regarding the second coming:
“He burned the house down to announce His arrival.”

As for the Jewish objection to the idea of Jesus being Messiah because He did not fulfill all Messianic prophecies, one must realize that His Messiahship is not over yet and will not be until the end of these days.
 
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Did you ever see that episode of Gilligan’s Island where there are two Gilligans, one real Gilligan and one Russian spy who looks just like Gilligan? It’s kind of like that. People think they’re talking to Gilligan but they’re really talking to the spy. By the way, has a really cool pocket knife which is really a radio so he can communicate which the Soviet sub that’s coming to pick him up. The pocket knife has a laser beam too. I don’t want to spoil the episode for you, so I won’t tell you what happens.
 
You need to understand that we don’t see the NT as either scripture or reportage.

(I’m not going to debate the issue, I’m just pointing it out)
 
Daniel prophesied the death of the Messiah after the 69th week, and also that He would come again in glory to destroy all the kingdoms of the Earth and rule forever.
 
thats resurrection, Jews also have a resurrection belief. For example, the Pharisees believed in resurrection, the saduccees did not.
Thats why the prophecy of a messiah, with a death and resurrection became a political hotbed when Jesus was murdered as a political prisoner.
its why Caiaphus had Pilate station guards at the tomb. They did not want someone stealing Jesus body and then saying, see, He resurrected, He is the Jewish Messiah
 
Roseeurekacross said:
first of all what do the Jewish people believe about the messiah making an appearance.
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Generally speaking, the view is that the Messiah will be an appointed leader by God that will introduce eternal peace and tranquility for all ages to come. However, many believe less in a personal Messiah and more in a Messianic age, whereas the references are more symbolic in nature. Many others take a “we’ll find out when it happens”-approach. Many others that are secular Jews don’t really care.
 
Actually both the Roman Catholic Church and Judaism agree that the Jewish Scriptures (the Old Testament) never directly mention any prophecies about an individual termed “the Messiah.”

The first mention of “the Messiah” occurs in the Jewish writing known as the Gemara, expanded later in the Mishnah, and then more fully in the Talmud. These writings applied verses from the Jewish texts to the concept of the Jewish Messiah, but the concept is not found in the canon or deuterocanonical texts by name or theory.

The Pontifical Biblical Commission recently published a study entitled The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible. In it the Commission spelled out in detail that the Roman Catholic interpretation of Old Testament texts as prophesying about Jesus as Messiah could not be read as immediate nor as misunderstood by the Jews. On the contrary, the Commission wrote:
Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist. In reality, in the mystery of Christ crucified and risen, fulfilment is brought about in a manner unforeseen. It includes transcendence. Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance; he fills them with a new reality; one can even speak in this connection of a “new creation”. It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.
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Everyone knows that the destruction of the first temple was a punishment by God. Israel had fallen into idolatry so God let the Babylonians take Jews into exile. After 70 years, they were allowed to come back and rebuild the temple. Having said that, I ask my Jewish friends: how about the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD? Genocide, massive exile of Jewish survivors for over 1900 years, the temple never rebuilt. How do you explain this much greater punishment by God other than the rejection of Jesus the messiah?
 
do we get to compare the scale and intensity of the punishment of God?

Do you think the Jews in BC 6th century who were taken into Babylon and subject to pagan gods, lost their homes and temples were any less punished.

Remember the hymn by the rivers of babylon
 
The Old Testament had the prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. And it already happened.

The New Testament has the prophecies of His second coming. It didn’t happen yet.

This is basically it.
 
After the Shoah (the Holocaust), Jews revisited their longstanding theological view that God destroyed the Temple of Solomon and sent them into exile as punishment for their sins. Why?

Because that would mean that God was actively engaged in bringing the evils of the Holocaust upon the Jewish people and all the other innocents who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. That didn’t make sense.

The theological answer was simple: in the book of Job we learn that God is not the cause of evil that befalls anyone. Why Job is a parable, much as the parables of Jesus of Nazareth, like those taught by Jesus, the story of Job carries an important truth.

While respecting that some Catholics do indeed have a different view of Scripture, Jews do not necessarily see our texts as literal history. They are often filled with folklore and liturgical reworkings of historical narratives to teach religious lessons. They also give limited insights based on what the Jews thought at the time they composed them. For us who are Jews, that means they get a vote on how we view things, but not a veto. Unlike Christianity, Jewish thought is not static. It evolves.

Today Jewish though has moved beyond believing that God punished the Jews for their sins and demonstrated this by bringing the horrors of the Babylonian invasion and destruction of the First Temple. Yes, that is what the Scripture writers thought when it happened, but their views were limited. Catholic teaching agrees that not all the views in Scripture are complete. Some of what is found in Scripture, the Church teaches, is limited by the limits of what the human minds of the writers could comprehend.

The view that God is responsible for evil was the ancient view of Judaism. God controlled all forces, good and bad. That is not what we think anymore. The Holocaust changed that. That means neither the First or Second Temple fell because the Jews did anything wrong. Nations get conquered from time to time. Enemies rise. Terrorists sometimes send planes into towers and kill a lot of people, but that doesn’t mean God is angry with the people in the towers.

It is also official Roman Catholic teaching that God is not punishing the Jews for rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. This is not a good time for bringing that up either. The Catholic Church is in a bad light for crimes against children. Let us not forget that the Church is also responsible for the Spanish and Mexican Inquisitions which persecuted, tortured, and murdered thousands of Jews. And while many brave Catholics risked their lives to protect and help Jews during the Nazi regime, many more sided with them and helped them hunt us down and did their duty as “good Germans” during the Holocaust. God didn’t bring these evils upon us. Christians did.

Jews today do not hold the Christians of today responsible for the errors of the past. We view the Catholic Church as a partner in the work of bringing God’s redemption to the world today. We move past seeing ourselves as on opposite sides. Those who cannot work shoulder to shoulder, however, are neither working with Jews or the Church in this effort.
 
BenYosef said:
Today Jewish though has moved beyond believing that God punished the Jews for their sins and demonstrated this by bringing the horrors of the Babylonian invasion and destruction of the First Temple. Yes, that is what the Scripture writers thought when it happened, but their views were limited.
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ok that is not what the Orthodox Jews that I know tell me. They accept the destruction of the first temple as punishment by God they just don’t have an explanation for the destruction of the second temple.
 
While Orthodox Judaism does lean toward a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of the fall of the First Temple, this does not mean they at the same time hold to the belief that God still punishes us today in like manner. That would mean that the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust were caused by God, but Orthodox Jews don’t believe that.

Jewish thought has changed across the spectrum of denominations, including among the Orthodox. Critical thinking is not absent from Jews from any tradition, nor can it be argued that just because some Jews hold to a more traditional interpretation of the Jewish Bible that their modern view of how God deals with Jews has not changed. The two can be and often are very different.
 
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