The millenium

[Fitz1901]

I have heard that we catholics believe in Amillenialism. ( in other words no millenium.)

what are the biblical reasons for this belief. Because the bible seems to lean towards there being an actual millenium.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It was precisely to repudiate chiliasm (belief in an earthly millennium) that the phrase “whose kingdom shall have no end” was added to the Nicene Creed.

If you look at Psalm 90 (89 in the LXX and Vulgate), you will read that a thousand years are as one day with the Lord, or even a night watch (4 hours).

St. Peter echoes this in 2 Peter 3:8: A day with the Lord is as 1000 years, and 1000 years as one day. And he says this i n the context of talking about the return of Christ and the last things.

Now we get to Revelation, the most symbolic, pictorial, allegorical, and figurative book of the Bible–and after TWO WARNINGS not to understand “1000 years” in earthly terms, suddenly these are to be taken for fallen terrestial time?

Furthermore, if you read the Rev 20 carefully, you will see that St. John saw the SOULS of those beheaded for Christ reigning with Him for 1000 years–not their bodies and souls reunited. So clearly, this reign is taking place in heaven (which is not bound by earthly chronometry).

I hope this helps.

 

[Lev23]

Furthermore, if you read the Rev 20 carefully, you will see that St. John saw the SOULS of those beheaded for Christ reigning with Him for 1000 years–not their bodies and souls reunited. So clearly, this reign is taking place in heaven (which is not bound by earthly chronometry).

I hope this helps.

I think you’re wrong on this one. The same verse you refer to(Rev20:4) clearly says those same souls are resurrected.

Rev 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Furthermore, verse 7 makes this point-
Rev20:7 When the thousand years are over…

If Heaven is outside of time and in eternity, then how can a 1000 years(no matter how long or short you want it to be) come to pass in eternity?

 

[COPLAND_3]

We as Catholics believe in the Millenium, but not as a literal 1000 years. We are in the Millenium right now! The Church Age is the 1000 year reign.

St. Augustine makes a good point here concerning the Church is now His kingdom.

But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming. For, leaving out of account that kingdom concerning which He shall say in the end, “Come, you blessed of my Father, take possession of the kingdom prepared for you,” Matthew 25:34 the Church could not now be called His kingdom or the kingdom of heaven unless His saints were even now reigning with Him, though in another and far different way; for to His saints He says, “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.” Matthew 28:20

An dHe goes on with more Scripture evidence about His kingdom…

And from the Church those reapers shall gather out the tares which He suffered to grow with the wheat till the harvest, as He explains in the words “The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered together and burned with fire, so shall it be in the end of the world. The Son of man shall send His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all offenses.” Matthew 13:39-41 **Can He mean out of that kingdom in which are no offenses? Then it must be out of His present kingdom, the Church, that they are gathered. **

Oecumenius drives it home with more Scripture, but more specifically concerning the 1000 years, he says…

The prophet tells us, “For a thousand years in your sight, Lord, are like yesterday which is past, and a watch in the night. (Ps. 89:4)” So then, the 1000 years are reckond as one day in the eyes of God. The second epistle of Blessed Peter says the same, when he writes, “But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a 1000 years, and a thousand years as one day. (2Pet. 3:8)” So this is how it is; blessed Isaiah calls the whole incarnation of the Lord “a day,” saying, “In a time of favor I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I helped you.(Is. 49:8)” Nor is this all: the psalmist too, calls it a day and an early morning, saying somewhere, “*This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it *(Ps. 117:24)” with the joy of our salvation: elsewhere …

There are many passages which show that numbers are to be understood spiritually, not literally. Such as

Ps 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Would this mean a literal 1000 generations? No, this means “all generations.”

 

[nablaise]

According to my understanding so far, the millenium is the period between the first baptism and the end of the world.

From the first baptism which received people in the church, people were raised up (first resurrection). The Lord said “Now, is the hour where those who are in the grave shall hear the voice of the son of man and come to life”.

The dead he was talking about was everybody who are dead in sin. And as we know everyone is dead in sin unless they hear the gospel, get baptised and enter the Church.

So as someone mentioned. The millenium is simply the age of the Church.

 

[COPLAND_3]

According to my understanding so far, the millenium is the period between the first baptism and the end of the world.

No, the millenium began at the day of Pentecost and will end when Jesus comes again. That is why it is called the Church Age, the Church was born on the day of Pentecost.

From the first baptism which received people in the church, people were raised up (first resurrection). The Lord said “Now, is the hour where those who are in the grave shall hear the voice of the son of man and come to life”.

The dead he was talking about was everybody who are dead in sin. And as we know everyone is dead in sin unless they hear the gospel, get baptised and enter the Church.

Yes, exactly! The only error was baptism being the start of the millenium, those are separate.

Now, the binding of the Devil is perfectly explained by Augustine, and it refers to Matt. 12:29.

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says, “No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man”—meaning by the strong man the devil, because he had power to take captive the human race; and meaning by his goods which he was to take, those who had been held by the devil in various sins and iniquities, but were to become believers in Himself. It was then for the binding of this strong one that the apostle saw in the Apocalypse “an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a chain in his hand. And he laid hold,” he says, “on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,”—that is, bridled and restrained his power so that he could not seduce and gain possession of those who were to be freed.

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

From what I can tell the Catholic Church is panmillinialist…it will all pan out in the end.

When we get caught up in the details we sometimes miss the message. That said, Biblical study of the end of times is intriguing!

 

[spauline]

admittedly, we cannot be chiliasts, but neither do we as Catholics have to accept Augustine’s SECOND solution (amill) as the only plausible one, much less the most meaningful and profound.

In the most profound and balanced sense, it is the coming age of peace, that is, partial allegory, which is the primary sense of Revelation as well as Genesis 1-11, instead of ***full ***allegory, which is what amill is.

 

[COPLAND_3]

spauline

admittedly, we cannot be chiliasts, but neither do we as Catholics have to accept Augustine’s SECOND solution (amill) as the only plausible one, much less the most meaningful and profound.

True, we are not obligated to believe St. Augustine’s formula of the 1000 year reign, though it is the most accepted among Catholics, and as I have examined it, I can see why.

In the most profound and balanced sense, it is the coming age of peace, that is, partial allegory, which is the primary sense of Revelation as well as Genesis 1-11, instead of full allegory, which is what amill is.

I admit, interpreting prophecy is not exactly done by taking a consensus, but it seems like you are very independent in your interpretations on Revelation, I have never seen anything like it, but granted, you are very creative and original, and you do make sense. But I am very traditional and orthodox minded, and feel that the the most sound exegesis is what has been traditionally believed and accepted by Catholics.

 

[spauline]

spauline

True, we are not obligated to believe St. Augustine’s formula of the 1000 year reign, though it is the most accepted among Catholics, and as I have examined it, I can see why.

I admit, interpreting prophecy is not exactly done by taking a consensus, but it seems like you are very independent in your interpretations on Revelation, I have never seen anything like it, but granted, you are very creative and original, and you do make sense. But I am very traditional and orthodox minded, and feel that the the most sound exegesis is what has been traditionally believed and accepted by Catholics.

Well, I suppose that many of my ideas are “newer” ways of looking at things. I think you are right in that regard.

And yet, I do not at all wish to set myself against the Church in any way. In effect, I am attempting provide a DEEPER correlation between Public Revelation and the development of doctrine that already exists in the faith. So rather than being considered “independent”, I firmly believe that i am attempting to make the Catholic meaning of history and the Scripture and Trad even MORE Catholic and “deeperly” Catholic than it already is.

For example, some of the approach that i take was already attempted by Father Kramer in 1934, at least to some extent, and his book, the Book of Destiny, is at TAN. If anything, I’d say I am probing even deeper and more profoundly than he did.

Please remember, Copland, before he was Pope, in writing on eschatology in his book, Cardinal Ratzinger discussed the notion that as more history develops for the Church, her understanding of what has been revealed in the deposit of Faith shall be become deeper.

My stuff is, admittedly, new, but I’m not sure I would like to called “independent”, as if that would apply that i am “independent” of the Church. For I am absolutley attempting to suggest meanings that are thoroughly CATHOLIC to the core, that look at the existing history through a theological lense that is thoroughly CATHOLIC, and uses only existing Catholic teaching, in great depth.

But perhaps I am misinterpreting your suggestion that i am “independent”?

But thank you for your comments, Copland.

I don’t wish to rock the boat as much as to suggest that even deeper implications may exist for the Scriptural data than has already been developed.

God Bless your studies, Copland.

 

[BRB]

N

Now, the binding of the Devil is perfectly explained by Augustine, and it refers to Matt. 12:29.

So… very interesting. Augustine thinks the Devil is currently bound … during the current Church Age ?

And believes the Stong Man in the parable is the devil …

Thats quite a stretch to make.

 

[COPLAND_3]

spauline,

Thanks for your explanation, though from what I have learned about you over the time I have been on this forum, I have no reason to doubt your loyalty to the Catholic Church, and surely did not intend to even hint that. That being said, your explanation also clarified your intentions and does open my eyes to appreciate your interpretations more so, because like I said, I found them to make sense and very interesting. I consider myself a slave to truth, and try to have the heart of St. Augustine when he said, “Advance with me when you share my certainty; seek with me when you have the same doubts; accept my interpretation when it is you who is error; and win me over to yours when it is I who is wrong.”

 

[spauline]

spauline,

Thanks for your explanation, though from what I have learned about you over the time I have been on this forum, I have no reason to doubt your loyalty to the Catholic Church, and surely did not intend to even hint that. That being said, your explanation also clarified your intentions and does open my eyes to appreciate your interpretations more so, because like I said, I found them to make sense and very interesting. I consider myself a slave to truth, and try to have the heart of St. Augustine when he said, “Advance with me when you share my certainty; seek with me when you have the same doubts; accept my interpretation when it is you who is error; and win me over to yours when it is I who is wrong.”

thank you, copland, for the clarification and compliment. Indeed, let us grow together. I look forward to your sharings of the earlier testimonnies as well, for certainly, wonderful depth already exists in earlier times, and, who knows, this earlier stuff will only enrich my studies, and all of our studies.

Peace,
scott

 

[COPLAND_3]

BRB

So… very interesting. Augustine thinks the Devil is currently bound … during the current Church Age ?

And believes the Stong Man in the parable is the devil …

Thats quite a stretch to make.

In that parable in Matt. 12:29, it is talking about the Devil.

25. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand; 26. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?27. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils**, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come to you.29. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.**

St. Augustine is not alone in that seeing it is the Devil, here are some quotes showing that St. Augustine is in pretty good company!
RABAN; Therefore He has spoiled his house, in that them whom He foresaw should be His own, He set free from the snares of the Devil, and has joined to the Church.

St. Jerome The strong man is bound and chained in tartarus, bruised by the Lord’s foot. Yet ought we not therefore to be careless; for here the conqueror Him self pronounces our adversary to be strong.

St. John Chrysostom for He says, So far am I from having the Devil for my ally, that I rather am at war with him, and bind him; and in that I cast out after this sort, I therein spoil his goods.

**IshoDad of Merv **Here He calls Satan a strong man, and [He calls] man his goods and possession ; He says that just as no man can enter into the house of one who is strong, unless he first bind the strong man ;

**Oecumenius **It was in this period of the Lord’s Incarnation that the Devil was bound, so that he was unable to oppose the Savior’s divine miracles… The Lord, too, when talking of stripping off the bonds, said, “Or how can anyone enter a strong man’s house …”

Primasius And He accomplished this through thatr work that He had promised before when He said, “No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his wares, unless he first bind the strong man,” that is, the Devil.

St. Hippolytus that Satan is bound here, |according to that which is written, that Christ went up into the strong man’s house and bound him, and spoiled his goods for us [St. Matth. xii. 29].

 

[COPLAND_3]

So… very interesting. Augustine thinks the Devil is currently bound … during the current Church Age ?

The Devil is bound, meaning he has been restrained. Think about it, before Christ came the Devil basically had free reign over the whole world, and God’s people were found only in a very small part of the earth, a people who were following the old covenant. But when Christ established the New Covenant and establish the Church, Satan lost control of the world and God’s people has spread over the entire earth. Who would had thought that one day that an emperor of Rome would one day convert to Christianity and lift the persecution from Christians and make Christianity the official religion of the empire? Who would had thought that there would be places on earth that were unheard of that would one day have thousands of Parishes? Many things changed when Satan was bound.

I understand that it is hard to comprehend that Satan is “bound” when we look at all the evil in the world and see what control Satan does have. But when we look at it in a historical perspective, we see that Satan has been restrained. But he will be released for a time, and we could be seeing the beginning of it. I understand the Pope is concerned and alarmed about the spread of atheism. Muslims out number Catholics now, which alarms me!

 

[spauline]

The Devil is bound, meaning he has been restrained. Think about it, before Christ came the Devil basically had free reign over the whole world, and God’s people were found only in a very small part of the earth, a people who were following the old covenant. But when Christ established the New Covenant and establish the Church, Satan lost control of the world and God’s people has spread over the entire earth. Who would had thought that one day that an emperor of Rome would one day convert to Christianity and lift the persecution from Christians and make Christianity the official religion of the empire? Who would had thought that there would be places on earth that were unheard of that would one day have thousands of Parishes? Many things changed when Satan was bound.

I understand that it is hard to comprehend that Satan is “bound” when we look at all the evil in the world and see what control Satan does have. But when we look at it in a historical perspective, we see that Satan has been restrained. But he will be released for a time, and we could be seeing the beginning of it. I understand the Pope is concerned and alarmed about the spread of atheism. Muslims out number Catholics now, which alarms me!

or it could be that when Constantine conquered, that was only the casting of the dragon from heaven to earth (compare the victory speech in Revelation 12 to the ones in Daniel 2 and 7, both of which speak of the victory of the saints over the Roman Empire), but that in the last 1700 years, indeed the woman is on earth, but in no wise is the dragon chained, because “he knows his time is short”. So that the temporary but troubled rest for the woman was Catholic Christendom, and that the spewing of the flood from the dragon was Protestantism and the Enlightenment, and that, with secular messianism now holding sway over humanity to far greater proportions then faithful persons of any religion, we are now in Revelation 13, with the seductive lie of secular messianism, and that coming is the bowls of wrath, the Minor Chastisement, and that when the faith is gloriously restored, then shall the dragon truly be chained, for not only will most of humanity be Catholic, but they will actually LIVE what they believe.

And then the final release of the dragon in Revelation 20 simply repeats the imagery of Revelation 13-16, in the great apostasy after the Millennium, during which the Antichrist comes, and the real end of the world occurs.

Just some ideas anyway.



why? Because the war in heaven is AFTER the Ascension! Or at least, that is the plain order of the text.

You see, it is people like JImmy Akin, because they look at things PURELY allegorically, they must necessarily argue that the chronology of Revelation 12 is not to be taken at face value. But with the lense of partial allegory, no such dismissal is needed. For in partial allegory, the collection of the scenes of the dragon are purely chronological from the beginning of human history until the end.

 

[robert_ambrose]

i am so overwhelmed by all these different interpretations i’m in rapture. oops

 

[nablaise]

:d :d :d

 

[MonkeyFriend]

Monkey Friend watch Planet of the Apes. It’s true. The next age monkeys rule!

 

[BRB]

The Devil is bound, meaning he has been restrained. Think about it, before Christ came the Devil basically had free reign over the whole world, and God’s people were found only in a very small part of the earth, a people who were following the old covenant. But when Christ established the New Covenant and establish the Church, Satan lost control of the world and God’s people has spread over the entire earth.

I understand that it is hard to comprehend that Satan is “bound” when we look at all the evil in the world and see what control Satan does have. But when we look at it in a historical perspective, we see that Satan has been restrained. But he will be released for a time, and we could be seeing the beginning of it. I understand the Pope is concerned and alarmed about the spread of atheism. Muslims out number Catholics now, which alarms me!

I don’t follow you on this. Where is the evidence that evil is any less present in last 2000 years ? The brutality of Roman Empire was much in evidence for next 300 yrs after Christ’s cross. Wars have never diminished. 8 Million Jews were recently starved, Pol Pot’s massacres in S.E. Asia ?? Rwandan genocide. Sex trade is ongoing. Sexual abuses … within the Church. Addictions are rampant.

God’s chosen Jewish people are still in denial regarding Christ.

Yes, satan frequently changes tactics, depending of knowledge of man … but, mankind is just as brutal today as before time of Christ on earth. Christ even warned us the world would reject Christians … just as it rejected Him.